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Feminism: chat

Feminism: sex and gender

Original poster

Consent issue. Spanish footballer vs her federation's president.

85 replies

AussieCallil · 26/08/2023 05:13

I'm really impressed with Jenni Hermoso's No Shit Tolerated attitude on this.

Says she did not consent to be forcibly grabbed by the head and kissed full on the mouth (bleurgh) by Spanish football federation president Luis Rubiales.

He dismissed it as an exuberant, celebratory 'peck'. Apparently her complaint is "false feminism" and an undeserved "social assassination" of his character.
<sigh> 🙄

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/U6C6qPpoG6I
(Independent Sport evidence clip)

[Real charmer.
He also pointed at the players then grabbed his crotch as Spain won. Standing next to the Queen and her 16-year-old daughter. Classy].

81 players confirm they will not play for Spain's women's team until he is removed from his post. Good for them.

Hermoso released a long statement on social media: "I want to make clear that at no time did the conversation to which Mr Luis Rubiales refers to in his address take place and, above all, was his kiss ever consensual."

She added his claims were "categorically false and part of the manipulative culture that he has generated".

"I feel the need to report this incident because I believe no person, in any work, sports or social setting should be a victim of these types of non-consensual behaviours. I felt vulnerable and a victim of impulsive-driven, sexist, out-of-place act, without any consent on my part," she continued.

"Quite simply, I was not respected."
She added that she was put "under continuous pressure" to help with a "statement that could justify" Rubiales' actions - and so were her family, friends and team-mates.

England's Lionesses backed her immediately. Yay them.
Their official statement:
“Unacceptable actions allowed to happen by a sexist and patriarchal organisation. Abuse is abuse and we have all seen the truth.

“The behaviour of those who think they are invincible must not be tolerated and people shouldn’t need convincing to take action against any form of harassment. We all stand with you, Jenni Hermoso and all players of the Spanish team.”

https://www.bbc.co.uk./sport/football/66621772

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/aug/24/spanish-football-president-in-kissing-row-denies-new-misogyny-allegations

OP posts:
GrammarTeacher · 27/08/2023 06:24

Seeing this stuff being minimised on this board is the pits!

Buffypaws · 27/08/2023 06:44

yep. Unbelievable.

Kucinghitam · 27/08/2023 06:46

GrammarTeacher · 27/08/2023 06:24

Seeing this stuff being minimised on this board is the pits!

I saw the usernames and thought "ah, of course."

Buildingthefuture · 27/08/2023 07:08

I watched it, fully expecting to be outraged, and I thought it was a non issue. If there is a back story of him being a creepy fucker, that puts a different light on it, but, I couldn’t get worked up about this in isolation. It looked like a heat of the moment thing. She hugged him and picked him up, probably not something she would do in normal every day life. If he had done that to her, would you also think that was sexual assault?

Snoken · 27/08/2023 07:09

ZenNudist · 26/08/2023 20:44

I'm the first to call out sexism and male violence against women but I don't see it here. I understand he's been a cunt behind the scenes so they are taking a stand on this non-issue.

I doubt you are the first to call out sexism, you can't even spot it.

I would be furious if any man (colleague, neighbour, GP, teacher whatever) grabbed my head with both hands and kissed me on the lips when our relationship isn't of that type. Of course it is sexism. Him being happy doesn't make it OK to forcefully kiss women who facilitated his happiness.

Totalwasteofpaper · 27/08/2023 07:18

GrammarTeacher · 27/08/2023 06:24

Seeing this stuff being minimised on this board is the pits!

Indeed

His behaviour is appalling. Even the arsehole posters on the DM comment section can see that.

I found the RFEF response laughable and disappointing in equal measure.
Absolutely fascinating that these misogynistic morons want to double down on their defence. His assault on her was broadcast LIVE - its beggars belief.
I am just waiting for his next line of defence which will be something predictable like "i am innocent. theres no way this can be true because she is an ugly bitch. I'd have picked a more beautiful player to assault if THAT WAS what happened."

I am just aghast the patriarchy at RFEF havent worked out that he needs to go under the bus... its too late to save their dickhead pal....

https://www.marca.com/en/football/womens-world-cup/2023/08/26/64e9c4efe2704e83728b4596.html

The RFEF responds to Jenni Hermoso and reminds the players of their obligation to go to the national team

The Royal Spanish Football Federation (RFEF) has issued a long statement in response to the one issued by Jennifer Hermoso and before that by a group of more than 80 players, inclu

https://www.marca.com/en/football/womens-world-cup/2023/08/26/64e9c4efe2704e83728b4596.html

JennyForeigner · 27/08/2023 07:22

Snoken · 27/08/2023 07:09

I doubt you are the first to call out sexism, you can't even spot it.

I would be furious if any man (colleague, neighbour, GP, teacher whatever) grabbed my head with both hands and kissed me on the lips when our relationship isn't of that type. Of course it is sexism. Him being happy doesn't make it OK to forcefully kiss women who facilitated his happiness.

Show quote history

Oh come on, it's grim. How can MN be so clear on the wrongness of manky old uncles or grandparents demanding little children show them affection, but 'nothing to see here' about a woman at the peak of her profession being grabbed at and held with two hands/intruded on without her consent?

It's the usual shitty grotesque 'this is my moment' and I'm showing my dominance from a sweaty arrogant middle-aged man who thinks he owns the world. The hands on the face position - faked intimacy - is your clue. It's gross, and the women involved are heroic to call it out.

JennyForeigner · 27/08/2023 07:23

Sorry @Snoken. I started this post to thank you. Can't see where the first sentence went!

User60327 · 27/08/2023 08:01

Buildingthefuture · 27/08/2023 07:08

I watched it, fully expecting to be outraged, and I thought it was a non issue. If there is a back story of him being a creepy fucker, that puts a different light on it, but, I couldn’t get worked up about this in isolation. It looked like a heat of the moment thing. She hugged him and picked him up, probably not something she would do in normal every day life. If he had done that to her, would you also think that was sexual assault?

What do you do for a living?

pickledandpuzzled · 27/08/2023 08:24

I'm shocked by apologists on this thread.

I listened to the various news stories and justifications.

I wondered, as he 'kissed her like a father would kiss his daughter' how he'd feel about all the other random men in the world grabbing and kissing his daughter in the same way.

I wondered how it could be consensual when the woman involved says it is not and realised that to him, consensual means 'I really want to, and she won't say no, and it's ok for me to do things I really want to do because I'm not abusive, I didn't need to check with her because I know it's ok.'

I wondered how many men in his workplace randomly grab and kiss him forcefully on the lips.

I wondered why he didn't say 'shit, sorry, I got carried away. I really shouldn't have, I thought it was ok but was clearly wrong. I'll be more careful.'.

I wondered why people clapped a man admitting to assault and refusing to accept it.

I wondered so many things.

I also wondered why I had forgotten the time it happened to me on a busy street on New Year's Eve when I was about 15.

Snoken · 27/08/2023 08:28

@JennyForeigner no problem😀 The man is a pig.

aweegc · 27/08/2023 09:16

To all posters who think it's not a big deal, do you kiss your colleagues/employees/direct reports on the lips when they do well?

How do they respond?

If you don't, why haven't you? Would you do it next time a big target has been reached - as obviously you are saying it's an acceptable behaviour.

Buildingthefuture · 27/08/2023 09:26

@User60327 why is that relevant to my question about whether others on this thread would consider it sexual assault if he had picked her up and hugged her?

overdalexx · 27/08/2023 09:30

User60327 · 27/08/2023 08:01

What do you do for a living?

Show quote history

an odd question/how relevant?
what do you do for a living?

User60327 · 27/08/2023 09:33

an odd question/how relevant?
what do you do for a living?

I'm a teacher. Year four.

I was interested because I couldn't imagine a job where it would be a non-issue to grab the head of a junior workmate and kiss them on the lips in the heat of the moment.

Talipesmum · 27/08/2023 09:47

There’s a lot of hugging and exuberance in football after a massive win, and you wouldn’t get that in “normal” workplaces. But kissing forcefully on the lips is a different matter. He also has a history of this attitude - and I’m sure this is why they’re making a stand. But this instigating incident is not ok either way.

ReginaRegina · 27/08/2023 10:17

None of us except this young woman get to decide what's classed as a sexual act.

Really. So if he had shook her hand she could decide it was a sexual handshake. 🤔

WeetabixTowels · 27/08/2023 10:51

Buildingthefuture · 27/08/2023 07:08

I watched it, fully expecting to be outraged, and I thought it was a non issue. If there is a back story of him being a creepy fucker, that puts a different light on it, but, I couldn’t get worked up about this in isolation. It looked like a heat of the moment thing. She hugged him and picked him up, probably not something she would do in normal every day life. If he had done that to her, would you also think that was sexual assault?

So you’d be ok with a male boss giving you a smacker on the lips if you did a good job?

WeetabixTowels · 27/08/2023 10:52

ReginaRegina · 27/08/2023 10:19

So why is nobody challenging all the sexual assaults in male football I wonder?

Which of those footballers have said they didn’t consent? And which ones are sued for being kissed?

I’ll ask you - would you want a male boss giving you a smacker on the lips after you did a good job? No big deal right?

Original poster
AussieCallil · 27/08/2023 11:29

@ReginaRegina,
from that clip, it's mostly between team mates who know each other well, who spend a lot of time together, who presumably therefore know each other are ok about kissing and being kissed with gripped face etc., and who, crucial point, are equals in the power structure of their sport.

If Rubiales is a federation president, I (perhaps wrongly?) assume he doesn't know Hermoso to much extent. Maybe just more formally, as Spain's captain?

[I'm happy to be corrected, as not familiar with finer points of football (bit awkward, as this my thread!)]

Or he'd have already known her genuine feelings, certainly about not being head-grip kissed. His boss-to-underling is still a man-to-woman power imbalance. Shouldn't be, of course, in 2023 but still is.

The fact that certain people have painted Hermoso as being an uppity woman too quick to take umbrage, yet who's now claiming "poor delicate flower status" (actual quote from an acquaintance yesterday), probably hacks her off more than anything.

OP posts:
Original poster
AussieCallil · 27/08/2023 11:31

Talipesmum · 27/08/2023 09:47

There’s a lot of hugging and exuberance in football after a massive win, and you wouldn’t get that in “normal” workplaces. But kissing forcefully on the lips is a different matter. He also has a history of this attitude - and I’m sure this is why they’re making a stand. But this instigating incident is not ok either way.

Absolutely this.

OP posts:
Buildingthefuture · 27/08/2023 11:41

@WeetabixTowels on a random Tuesday, for doing a good job? It would be weird. If the company had won the biggest possible award on the world stage, after years of trying, investing millions of pounds and a lengthy fight to get there and I had first demonstrated my own exuberance by hugging him and picking him up? Yes I would be fine with that. Particularly if, as seems to be the way in team sports, hugging, kissing, ripping off your shirt to run around celebrating and doing random cartwheels was normal in my place of work. Let’s be fair, most of us don’t do that at work!
Would YOU be fine with someone hugging you and picking you up? Or would you class that as sexual assault? No one seems to want to answer that question?!

WeetabixTowels · 27/08/2023 11:43

Buildingthefuture · 27/08/2023 11:41

@WeetabixTowels on a random Tuesday, for doing a good job? It would be weird. If the company had won the biggest possible award on the world stage, after years of trying, investing millions of pounds and a lengthy fight to get there and I had first demonstrated my own exuberance by hugging him and picking him up? Yes I would be fine with that. Particularly if, as seems to be the way in team sports, hugging, kissing, ripping off your shirt to run around celebrating and doing random cartwheels was normal in my place of work. Let’s be fair, most of us don’t do that at work!
Would YOU be fine with someone hugging you and picking you up? Or would you class that as sexual assault? No one seems to want to answer that question?!

HANG ON

You think by hugging him (she didn’t pick him up at all watch the footage) HE was sexually assaulted, but an unwanted kiss from him is fine?

WTAF are you on?!

You might be fine being sexually assaulted (though I find it hard to believe) but this woman wasn’t. What do you have to say about that? She didn’t consent.

WeetabixTowels · 27/08/2023 11:47

I can’t believe people are being thick enough to fall for the doctored photo. We saw the footage she didn’t pick him up 🤣🤣 how embarrassing

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