Cis

[Fabulosia]

I’m receiving an unpleasant battering on social media regarding the term “ cis women”. Can anyone point me at resources to help me defend my objection to this terminology?

[MargotBamborough]

@nilsmousehammer

Demand of labour provision such as 'use my chosen language to me and create the reality for me that I want to live in' made to a group without power to say 'no' or have equal expectations of respect for their words and identities also part of the definition of 'oppressed group'.

Which in this case would be women.

Yes, their truth is the only one that matters.

I've had the conversation below on Twitter many times:

Me: What is a woman, if not an adult human of the female biological sex?
TRA: A woman is someone who identifies as female.
Me: Female is a biological sex. It's not something you can identify as.
TRA: No, it can be an identity too.
Me: What sort of identity? What does it look like? What features does it have?
TRA: It's personal. It means whatever you want it to mean.
Me: So the word "woman" means whatever each individual wants it to mean then?
TRA: Yes.
Me: Right. Well I want it to mean adult human of the female biological sex.
TRA: Not that.

[nilsmousehammer]

I've tried several times along the line of: 'to identify as something, you have to have a clear idea of what the word you are identifying as actually means. If you identify as a table, then it's a word with a clear picture in your head which you want to be like/be one of. Which means you are in fact fully aware that female means a biologically adult human female, you know this, when you say female that is what you're meaning. And so you're identifying as being biologically female when in fact you're not. Which means 'identify as' means in the sense you're using it: 'not really but want to be'. Which is fine. So long as we're clear that the actual females and the identified as females are not one group with no difference in need/provision/reality.'

That tends to cause some logic loops you'd need a corkscrew to work through.

[howdoesatoastermaketoast]

It seems to me that throughout my childhood my behaviour and dress was policed with the judgement of what was and wasn't sufficiently ladylike. Like many women of my generation I ended up rejecting that 'being a lady / ladylike' was of any great importance to me. It was very liberating. We embraced the word women as a word that described us all, without tests we needed to pass or standards we needed to live up to in order to qualify.

And that seems to be one of the principle divisions here, some people are using the word woman to mean a person who is satisfied and comfortable that they are passing the unspecified and highly personal tests of are they feminine enough to qualify as a woman.

Another set of people are arguing that we need to retain that word and have a word which means (nothing more or less than) human adult female. The implication that there are people born in the wrong body; the implication that every girl must figure out the rules of femineity, and judge how good she needs to be at it to qualify for womanhood is causing distress and not on a trivial scale. Autistic girls, and most especially homosexual autistic girls are not comfortable in their bodies, they aren't about to start calling themselves cis. They're opting out of 'woman' as surely as my generation opted out of the word lady but this time round there are some nasty implications.

[GenderCriticalTrumpets]

My trans kid is a big fan of calling me cis and I have started to respond with "I use the word woman. Which is what I am extremely proud to be. I don't need to add anything to it." I feel it's like a religion and I don't subscribe to that religion, therefore I don't have to use the language to describe myself. And in fact I find it pretty fucking offensive, especially when my child shouts "BUT YOU ARE CIS AND A TERF" whenever we argue.

[MargotBamborough]

@GenderCriticalTrumpets

My trans kid is a big fan of calling me cis and I have started to respond with "I use the word woman. Which is what I am extremely proud to be. I don't need to add anything to it." I feel it's like a religion and I don't subscribe to that religion, therefore I don't have to use the language to describe myself. And in fact I find it pretty fucking offensive, especially when my child shouts "BUT YOU ARE CIS AND A TERF" whenever we argue.

I think I would tell them that if they refuse to use language you find appropriate and respectful when talking to or about you, you are under no obligation to do that for them.

[GenderCriticalTrumpets]

@MargotBamborough oh I have, which results in them accusing me of being a transphobe 🤨🙄

[MargotBamborough]

Point proven then, @GenderCriticalTrumpets. Why should you pander be sensitive to the feelings of someone who is just going to be rude and call you names?

[howdoesatoastermaketoast]

@GenderCriticalTrumpets IF your particular little darling is of the mtf variety I'd consider policing their behaviour with the odd "that doesn't seem a very ladylike way to speak to your mother to me"

consider saying things like I don't mind whether you grow up into a lady or a gentleman but I'm not happy for you to behave like a self righteous (age dependant) twat/jerk/prick/arse/ etc.

Post up a list of rules for "how to behave like a lady / gentleman."

[AzureBlue99]

The thing is, if you are encouraged to quote your pronouns why can't you say you are a woman not a cis woman. I know you can say you are a woman, just in certain circumstances they are trying to label you.

[Anseret]

Then just say biological woman or real woman or natal woman or how about just woman as opposed to transwoman. I hate the term cis!

[Anseret]

That is exactly what is going on. It's the biological males masquerading as women who are now telling us who we are! Nuts that other women are going along with that. As to politicians saying that trans women are women that won't get my vote!

[OnAPostItNote]

@Whatsnewpussyhat

This

Love this

[nilsmousehammer]

@GenderCriticalTrumpets

My trans kid is a big fan of calling me cis and I have started to respond with "I use the word woman. Which is what I am extremely proud to be. I don't need to add anything to it." I feel it's like a religion and I don't subscribe to that religion, therefore I don't have to use the language to describe myself. And in fact I find it pretty fucking offensive, especially when my child shouts "BUT YOU ARE CIS AND A TERF" whenever we argue.

And if you responded using your own choice of words, and said 'and you are confused and a boy/girl' they'd say you were being hateful.

Double standards. It's all about control. All of it.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

There is no "this side" and no "other side" of being a woman.

You either are one or you aren't.

This. There aren't two sexes of woman.

[ApocalipstickNow]

I use the term woman just as when I (teetotal vegetarian) invite friends round for a barbecue (and get some veggie burgers and alcohol free beers in) I don’t tell my friends to bring meat burgers and alcoholic beer.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Great analogy.

[howdoesatoastermaketoast]

@ApocalipstickNow I agree with @Ereshkigalangcleg that is the best analogy I've seen

[SerafinasGoose]

@Titerama

@Fabulosia if you go into this with the attitude that any and every use of cis is oppressive, offensive, colonialism or pandering to male fantasy, you can be sure of coming off like an obsessive annoyance.

And unlike in the bubble of mn feminism boards, an unpleasant battering is likely.

I’m not interested in getting into a tussle about it, just a tiny reminder of how the real world works out there.

You don't. You can merely correct those who erroneously use this term to describe you, politely, every time.

This doesn't require long-winded attempts at justification. Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't it the most basic of courtesies to refer to others by the forms of address they prefer?

[SerafinasGoose]

I do not announce pronouns, and the term 'cis' offends me.

It's offensive, also, because I'm routinely informed that rejecting 'cis' stems from a desire to position one's 'gender identity' (whatever that means) as 'normal' and trans people as 'not normal'. I know perfectly well that such a motive has never been mine.

It's a cheek of some magnitude, not only to attach a label to someone that they don't consent to and vocally reject, but to assume to think for them and then articulate what they (wrongly) believe their motives to be. It doesn't come much more oppressive or presumptuous than that.

To accept the 'cis' label is to align myself with a set of regressive gender stereotypes I've spent my whole adult life rejecting: stereotypes I believe to be harmful to everyone: men, women, and trans people. I have no wish to identify with the instrument of my own oppression and I refuse to be forced into compliance.

The bastardisation of language - and the linguistic contortionism required simply to get around it - matters. 'Woman' is taken.

[ApocalipstickNow]

@howdoesatoastermaketoast

@ApocalipstickNow I agree with @Ereshkigalangcleg that is the best analogy I've seen

Thank you

[Madamecastafiore]

We don't need cis, biological or natal woman added to women. We are women, trans women can be called trans women (I won't write what they actually are and should be called because it'll get deleted) they can't take what is our sex and expect us to add anything to it because it's a clear definition and not one that needs changing to appease a minority who haven't had to fight for the rights that come with being an actual bona fide woman.

[Apricotflanday]

@DemelzasGreenDress

It literally only means a person is comfortable and happy in the body they were born into.

That's all it means.

There are examples of things having a subset in relation to whatever aspect of it is being discussed, everywhere.

If someone is described as a cis man or cis woman, it doesn't mean they aren't primarily a man or a woman. It means in the context of that particular conversation that their subset is relevant too.

Having a horrid feeling subset isn't the word I'm after. Going to find my dictionary.

How many women are happy with the body they were born with?!

[HesDeadBenYouCanStopNow]

I agree @Apricotflanday I have grown to accept my body despite disliking many things about it. But as a teenager I hated the changes, periods and the thought that I'd have to suffer them for decades. I think most women don't opt into being CIS, I hate the idea that people claim that I and all women like their bodies and female stereotypes and are therefore cis, vile.

My perception that men could live a life free of the fears and risks that affected me and other women meant I was very envious of boys. I think I would have been vulnerable to opting to be non binary if someone told me I could opt out of womanhood.

[literalviolence]

It can't be trans or cis when describing me because the minute you do that, the minute you create some 'sub sets' of woman, you exclude me from the definition of woman because you make it about something other than pure biology. And I don't feel like I'm a woman in anything other than a biological sense. It can only be a subset issue if there is some area of commonality between people in those different sub sets. There is nothing I have in common with a transwoman which I don't have in common with every other male. This can't be repeated enough because the whole dogma depends on this fact being hidden. It's time to examine it.

[timetorefresh]

Am I cisfat and transslim? I'd likely to identify out of the effects of my chocolate addiction please