Diversity Trust

wincarwoo · 2023-04-17T12:25:33+00:00

Hi, so my workplace is organising training delivered by the Diversity Trust who I can see are very much TWAW. Title of the course is speak up and speak out - ironically! What should I do? Go on the course and challenge whilst I'm there? Or I'd quite like to have a word with HR about how I object to the Diversity Trust's stance (which I presume will be hypocritical). Any suggestions welcome

NewNameNigel · 17/04/2023 16:05

Before you do anything I think you should think about the potential cost to you vs the change of you speaking up actually changing anything. If you decide it is worth speaking up I would have thought it would be more productive to counter points as they come up in the course rather than talking to HR before you even know the course content.

Original poster

wincarwoo · 17/04/2023 21:10

NewNameNigel · 17/04/2023 16:05

Before you do anything I think you should think about the potential cost to you vs the change of you speaking up actually changing anything. If you decide it is worth speaking up I would have thought it would be more productive to counter points as they come up in the course rather than talking to HR before you even know the course content.

That's probably sensible. I don't want to do the course anyway but I feel the need to counter the predictable narrative.

OP posts:

Titerama · 18/04/2023 01:24

Or you could maybe go to the diversity training and listen with an open mind, instead of presuming and going in to challenge with HR with this presumptions.

RoseslnTheHospital · 18/04/2023 09:49

Presumably it's this?

https://www.diversitytrust.org.uk/speak-up-and-speak-out/

I would go, take copious notes and decide in advance whether or not it's safe for you to challenge any misrepresentations of the law, or any language used that is anti-women in the actual course sessions. If you don't feel that speaking up is possible, then I'd challenge the content off line based on the notes that you make during the session.

NewNameNigel · 18/04/2023 10:22

Ironically it looks like the course might actually be helpful in giving you ways in which you could effectively challenge if you want to.

However, looking at the content you might not need to. I agree with @Titerama that you are presuming lot of things and you should be open minded until you know what is said.

Original poster

wincarwoo · 18/04/2023 11:36

NewNameNigel · 18/04/2023 10:22

Ironically it looks like the course might actually be helpful in giving you ways in which you could effectively challenge if you want to.

However, looking at the content you might not need to. I agree with @Titerama that you are presuming lot of things and you should be open minded until you know what is said.

Yes probably. I don't want to be put in a position where I am having to agree to assumptions that I don't agree with. From their Twitter feed it's clear I fundamentally disagree with their outlook.

I will probably attend and see what occurs.

OP posts:

DianeBrewster · 18/04/2023 11:43

I would frame all questions in terms of the benefits and threats to your organisation. Anything legally dodgy you can ask along the lines of "wouldn't this potentially expose us to the threat of a legal action? I've been reading about the case of ..... [x] and the courts don't seem to be interpreting the law in the way you are suggesting." Don't bring your own views into it, they are not necessarily relevant, keep it about the legal duties and responsibilities of your organisation.

HagoftheNorth · 20/04/2023 21:54

Titerama while you’re here, could you explain what it is that transwomen have in common with all other women but no men? You’ve been offering a fairly GI position this evening, which is, of course, fine. However, every GI poster I’ve asked this of has completely ignored me. But surely this is fundamental to understanding the GI position?
Hope you can offer some insight

Titerama · 20/04/2023 22:10

No thanks Hag, I’m not playing.

Some feminists don’t object to trans women in the way that GC feminists do.

Get over it, and stop trying to pick a fight just because some people in the feminism chat board are OK with trans people.

Original poster

wincarwoo · 20/04/2023 22:19

Titerama · 20/04/2023 22:10

No thanks Hag, I’m not playing.

Some feminists don’t object to trans women in the way that GC feminists do.

Get over it, and stop trying to pick a fight just because some people in the feminism chat board are OK with trans people.

Interesting the answer is of course nothing.

OP posts:

NewNameNigel · 21/04/2023 00:01

Don't worry @Titerama i don't have an issue with transwomen in the way most people on here do. I'm between GC and TWAW.
I've been called a bigoted TERF by people on the TRA side on been told I'm a handmaiden who is incapable of critical thinking by the kind women on here 🙃

HagoftheNorth · 21/04/2023 06:26

Titerama & Nigel I’m not trying to pick a fight - I’m genuinely interested

When I first became aware of transwomen it made me wonder what being a woman meant to me. It really worried me for ages that I wasn’t a proper because, other than having a woman’s body, it didn’t really mean anything.
I finally concluded that that was all it meant for me

I have no problem with transwomen, most of them are perfectly lovely, normal people who bring colour and energy to my city. BUT I don’t understand how anyone can regard them as women. Being a transwoman is a lovely thing to be, being a woman is a lovely thing to be - but I don’t see them as being the same & I’m trying to understand views that aren’t the same as mine

Switchwitch · 21/04/2023 06:48

I'd go to the training and see what they are telling you. In my experience a lot of website info for these type of organisations has to toe the twaw line but in reality the content veers from it.

Happylittlechicken · 21/04/2023 07:06

I’d love to hear how males can be a subset of females instead of males? Come on @Titerama you can do it. I believe in you. You are the one to give us the elusive answer of what exactly is the definition of a woman that means some females and some males are women and some are not. What do the males and the females all have in common that make them all women?

sashh · 21/04/2023 07:28

I'd talk to HR.

I absolutely hate any organisation that is supposed to be about inclusion but can't even bother to make their website accessible for people with screen readers / dyslexia/ other needs.

There are no subtitles on their film, no sign language interpreter, no option to change the font / background colour.

I'd go to HR with that.

Titerama · 21/04/2023 07:49

“I hate any organisation that is supposed to be about inclusion but can't even bother to make their website accessible for people with screen readers / dyslexia/ other needs.”

Totally with you in that @sashh

Accessibility is very poor on a lot of websites across the board, but a diversity organisation really should be doing better on that.

Original poster

wincarwoo · 21/04/2023 08:18

Switchwitch · 21/04/2023 06:48

I'd go to the training and see what they are telling you. In my experience a lot of website info for these type of organisations has to toe the twaw line but in reality the content veers from it.

I have no idea why anyone has to toe the twaw line. Totally baffling.

OP posts:

NewNameNigel · 21/04/2023 09:26

Happylittlechicken · 21/04/2023 07:06

I’d love to hear how males can be a subset of females instead of males? Come on @Titerama you can do it. I believe in you. You are the one to give us the elusive answer of what exactly is the definition of a woman that means some females and some males are women and some are not. What do the males and the females all have in common that make them all women?

Noone on this thread has said that males are a subset of female. Why are you asking @Titerama to defend a statement that she hasn't made?

Original poster

wincarwoo · 21/04/2023 09:37

@NewNameNigel that's what twaw is meant to mean.

OP posts:

NewNameNigel · 21/04/2023 09:40

wincarwoo · 21/04/2023 09:37

@NewNameNigel that's what twaw is meant to mean.

Yes exactly.
And noone has said that on this thread.

Happylittlechicken · 21/04/2023 09:46

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

NewNameNigel · 21/04/2023 10:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I think maybe you missed a word out there but nothing has been said on this thread about people's identities.

Are you following the poster around the forum, demanding she justifies her veiws?

ArabeIIaScott · 21/04/2023 17:12

Please document it and share if you can do so without any risk to yourself. It's always useful to have all this stuff out in the open where we can see it.

Ofcourseshecan · 23/04/2023 07:36

DianeBrewster · 18/04/2023 11:43

I would frame all questions in terms of the benefits and threats to your organisation. Anything legally dodgy you can ask along the lines of "wouldn't this potentially expose us to the threat of a legal action? I've been reading about the case of ..... [x] and the courts don't seem to be interpreting the law in the way you are suggesting." Don't bring your own views into it, they are not necessarily relevant, keep it about the legal duties and responsibilities of your organisation.

Very good advice.

Ofcourseshecan · 23/04/2023 07:43

NewNameNigel · 21/04/2023 09:26

Noone on this thread has said that males are a subset of female. Why are you asking @Titerama to defend a statement that she hasn't made?

Show quote history

Because OP said the Diversity Trust are very much TWAW, meaning they claim that transwomen (who by definition are male) are women.

Titerama advised OP to go to the diversity training and listen with an open mind. An ‘open mind’ would have to allow in the possibility that males can indeed be women.