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Feminism: chat

Feminism: sex and gender

Original poster

Diversity Trust

72 replies

wincarwoo · 17/04/2023 13:25

Hi, so my workplace is organising training delivered by the Diversity Trust who I can see are very much TWAW. Title of the course is speak up and speak out - ironically!
What should I do? Go on the course and challenge whilst I'm there? Or I'd quite like to have a word with HR about how I object to the Diversity Trust's stance (which I presume will be hypocritical). Any suggestions welcome

OP posts:
Zodfa · 23/04/2023 08:04

Titerama · 20/04/2023 22:10

No thanks Hag, I’m not playing.

Some feminists don’t object to trans women in the way that GC feminists do.

Get over it, and stop trying to pick a fight just because some people in the feminism chat board are OK with trans people.

I think this is a game where if you don't play, you lose.

Seriously, the refusal to ever give a halfway coherent definition of the main category under debate really isn't helping the trans movement in the slightest. It just makes trans activists look thick.

Original poster
wincarwoo · 23/04/2023 08:43

I can assure everyone that my open mind does not extend to twaw and will never extend to twaw.

OP posts:
Ofcourseshecan · 23/04/2023 10:28

At last I’ve got it! Feminists put women’s needs before men’s wishes. Therefore, no feminist accepts men using women’s spaces.

BUT if you believe TWAW, you can ‘identify’ as a feminist, the same way that men ‘identify’ as women. Finally I understand.

Now I’m off to identify as a supermodel and demand that Vogue puts me on its front cover.

Titerama · 23/04/2023 11:59

See, this sort of sneering of you’re not a feminist, you’re a TRA who puts men first and you’re thick is just childish.

An open mind, as in don’t assume that your workplace training on strategies to speak out and speak up on diversity related things might actually be a positive thing, and not assuming otherwise based in your own very obvious prejudicial assumptions.

Titerama · 23/04/2023 12:04

This thread is on the feminist chat board - some feminists are inclusive. It’s not an invitation to hurl abuse and insults.

Back to topic of thread…

Their website includes a lot of diversity strands, including menopause. Maybe just don’t pre-judge them with assumptions, and wait and see how it goes.

NewNameNigel · 23/04/2023 12:47

Ofcourseshecan · 23/04/2023 07:43

Because OP said the Diversity Trust are very much TWAW, meaning they claim that transwomen (who by definition are male) are women.

Titerama advised OP to go to the diversity training and listen with an open mind. An ‘open mind’ would have to allow in the possibility that males can indeed be women.

Show quote history

You're making a lot of leaps there.
I read it as not going in already having decided what the course will say.

Rather than the op complaining to HR about a course she you hasn't even attended based on what she thinks it will say.

NewNameNigel · 23/04/2023 12:48

There is a lot of black and white thinking on this forum. It's not a binary choice between being a TRA and believing that TWAW.

NewNameNigel · 23/04/2023 12:51

I pressed send too early.

It's not a binary choice between the prevailing viewa on this forum and being a TRA. There's a lot of grey area between which neither side seems to acknowledge.

Original poster
wincarwoo · 23/04/2023 14:38

NewNameNigel · 23/04/2023 12:51

I pressed send too early.

It's not a binary choice between the prevailing viewa on this forum and being a TRA. There's a lot of grey area between which neither side seems to acknowledge.

What grey areas are they?

OP posts:
NewNameNigel · 23/04/2023 14:42

I have been considering staring my own thread on this which I might do so as not to hijack this thread.

I would say one example is not agreeing with the "pronouns are rohypnal" peice.

HagoftheNorth · 23/04/2023 16:23

Nigel star the thread, I’d be interested 😊

RoseslnTheHospital · 23/04/2023 16:43

I've seen many posters give their personal opinion on using pronouns, which varies a lot depending on the person posting. Unsurprisingly.

NewNameNigel · 23/04/2023 17:57

RoseslnTheHospital · 23/04/2023 16:43

I've seen many posters give their personal opinion on using pronouns, which varies a lot depending on the person posting. Unsurprisingly.

Yup. Hence why pronouns could be said to be in a grey area.

RoseslnTheHospital · 23/04/2023 17:59

So why are you saying that comments on this board are black and white? When you've just acknowledged a grey area?

NewNameNigel · 23/04/2023 18:10

RoseslnTheHospital · 23/04/2023 17:59

So why are you saying that comments on this board are black and white? When you've just acknowledged a grey area?

Because of some of the responses those posters get.

Original poster
wincarwoo · 23/04/2023 19:20

I'm beginning to come round to the idea that I can just boycott an organisation whose beliefs I fundamentally disagree with.

OP posts:
RoseslnTheHospital · 23/04/2023 19:30

That's called discussion, Nigel. People don't have to agree. People can have strongly held opinions and want to argue forcefully against something they view as harmful. No need to tell everyone off for it. Just engage or not.

NewNameNigel · 23/04/2023 20:04

I'm not telling anyone off. You seem strangly defensive about something that wasn't directed at you personally.

NewNameNigel · 23/04/2023 20:08

wincarwoo · 23/04/2023 19:20

I'm beginning to come round to the idea that I can just boycott an organisation whose beliefs I fundamentally disagree with.

I wonder if you could request more info on the course content in advance to see if it gives you any clues about what will be covered.

Original poster
wincarwoo · 23/04/2023 21:34

@NewNameNigel ironically it's all about being an ally and challenging positively. Makes me think they assume that everyone will agree with them about what is permissible to challenge and what isn't.

OP posts:
PurpleBugz · 23/04/2023 22:29

I would challenge if they swap sex for gender in the equality act. Trans is part of LGB so it's protected under sexual orientation in the equality act. Sex if not a sexual orientation. TWAW and gender critical are arguably beliefs which are also protected under the equality act. Both beliefs are allowed and have a right to not be persecuted but they are not able to infringe on the rights of other protected groups.

I would just stick to that personally. Keep it factual within the equality act. I may challenge if I hear TW don't have legal protection but again I'd only reference the equality act.

Steer clear of TW in sport and women's spaces toilets and prisons. Unless you are being told you now have to share your work female toilets with men and feel uncomfortable. Even then I may not challenge in the training but go to HR after. You don't want to appear to spew hate speech or be a 'transphobe'.

But also listen with an open mind. It's important to listen to others views and consider them. We should be wary of echo chambers when seeking information and we should be critical of our own beliefs when challenged. Thinking about your position critically doesn't necessarily mean changing it but we fail if we don't challenge ourselves I believe

Redbird87 · 24/04/2023 03:23

I hate this argument that women who don't think twaw, or includes men in their feminism, somehow don't care about transwomen. That's what we've been brainwashed into thinking by people who want to shut our conversations down. It's not that simple, and I know the posters here are capable of realizing that many women who DONT by into this still don't want anything bad to happen to them, or for them to be actually targeted the way the TRAs brainwash suffering people into thinking they are.

Anyway, most diversity training is run by corporations making BANK on this shit, and there's been enough recordings of these kinds of meetings to come into it with cynicism. If she checked out what they're putting, themselves, on the internet to represent themselves, and she says it doesn't jive, I trust her, bc THEIR job is to come in with a pat on the head to say "now dear, you know that isn't right, but don't worry bc we're here to re-educate you." They're the ones coming in financially motivated not to listen or change their minds, she's free to prepare to calmly rebutt if it's not true.

Original poster
wincarwoo · 24/04/2023 06:59

Redbird87 · 24/04/2023 03:23

I hate this argument that women who don't think twaw, or includes men in their feminism, somehow don't care about transwomen. That's what we've been brainwashed into thinking by people who want to shut our conversations down. It's not that simple, and I know the posters here are capable of realizing that many women who DONT by into this still don't want anything bad to happen to them, or for them to be actually targeted the way the TRAs brainwash suffering people into thinking they are.

Anyway, most diversity training is run by corporations making BANK on this shit, and there's been enough recordings of these kinds of meetings to come into it with cynicism. If she checked out what they're putting, themselves, on the internet to represent themselves, and she says it doesn't jive, I trust her, bc THEIR job is to come in with a pat on the head to say "now dear, you know that isn't right, but don't worry bc we're here to re-educate you." They're the ones coming in financially motivated not to listen or change their minds, she's free to prepare to calmly rebutt if it's not true.

Totally. I won't be silenced that's how wars start.

OP posts:
Titerama · 24/04/2023 07:15

So here’s where we’re at then

OP wants to go to HR before the training to calmly object to the unknown content.

Calm objections to include

  • I won’t be silenced because that’s how wars start
  • if you are inclusive of trans women in feminism you are brainwashed

Cool - bound to succeed.

Titerama · 24/04/2023 07:21

“I hate this argument that women who don't think twaw, or includes men in their feminism, somehow don't care about transwomen. That's what we've been brainwashed into thinking by people who want to shut our conversations down.”

@Redbird87 its a good job no one has said that on this thread, nor anything close to it.