Another poster said on the swimming thread -
"but women are condemned to get thrush unless they can get home in ten min to wash the pool yuck out of their vulva."
I know showering in a cozzie makes it worse but seriously I cannot believe this is the first time I have seen / heard another woman mention this.
I hate fixed overhead showers.
In many cultures it is normal to have a bidet or other means of delivering running water near the toilet.
In our culture (british) I am old enough to remember when baths were standard and showers were "modern". now showers are standard and when they are fixed overhead only (in a hotel or in a house) and there is no bath (you can actually wash under the tap in a bath if the taps are on the long side, you can squat with your knees apart and get a decent wash) - I never feel clean.
I am prone to thrush, UTIs and various forms of dermatitis when I am run down and being scrupulously clean at all times really helps with this.
Who decided that overhead showers are enough and how can we be unembarrassed enough to do something about it?
Feminism: chat
Fixed showers - a feminist issue
trytopullyoursocksup · 30/03/2023 08:18
ShirleyPhallus · 30/03/2023 12:30
No. A skid mark doesn’t have anywhere near the level of bacteria as actual faeces coming from someone who is incontinent.
myveryownelectrickitten · 30/03/2023 12:20
There are other fungal infections that aren’t candida that affect the skin of the groin/vulva - tinea, for one, which also affects men and is often passed on in gym settings and is often tested similarly to Candida. And a whole range of different candidas are around, not just c. albicans. It doesn’t sound like you know an awful lot about this - it’s well worth reading up on in more detail.
I’n pretty shocked at how stigmatising and denigrating many of the responses are in this thread. Seems even more obvious to me that this is a feminist issue if there is such a response which is basically along the lines of “ugh dirty older women shouldn’t use any public facilities”. I would surmise that you’d get far more fecal bacteria in a swimming pool from men, young men and young kids who don’t bother to wipe properly (ever seen a teenage boy’s skidmarked pants?) — than older women who would like to shower their vulva or perineum before or after swimming to keep comfortable and clean. But the visceral reaction to this is very telling.
MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 30/03/2023 12:07
Candida is the cause of all thrush. That is what thrush is.
You are correct that chlorine kills the normal vulval microbes as well - that is another contributing factor to thrush after swimming. But showering - the topic of this thread - won't affect that, either way. By the time you get out the pool, many of the normal 'good' bacteria of the vulva will be dead. You can't make them any less dead by showering, and more won't continue to die once you are out the water. As soon as you are out the water, the chlorine levels drop considerably and your skin starts to be recolonised. If anything, vigorous showering and soaping is likely to inhibit that process.
However, chlorine does often continue to irritate the skin for some time after swimming, which is why for some women, showering is a factor in reducing the risk of thrush.
myveryownelectrickitten · 30/03/2023 11:55
This is a total misunderstanding of how thrush happens. Bacterial imbalances in the vagina - or, in fact, chlorine - kill off the vaginal bacteria (including lactobacillus and others) which inhibit Candida (the cause of most thrush) and cause it to overgrow.
You need the right kind of bacteria in the vagina and vulva to prevent thrush. The wrong bacteria (and killing off the right ones) can cause thrush — as well as bacterial vaginosis and other skin sensitivities in the vulva. This is made more likely when you have low oestrogen or vaginal atrophy (thinning of the vaginal tissue during breastfeeding or after menopause) because the vaginal and vulval tissue becomes thinner, has less muscle tone, and is more sensitive to bacterial and fungal imbalances.
MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 30/03/2023 11:49
It’s often caused by bacteria from the bowel getting into the urethra or vagina
It's a yeast infection, so a type of fungal infection. About half of people have the yeast - Candida albicans - in their guts, where it is harmless but, if it gets in the wrong place, it can cause infection. So, as you say, good hygiene does reduce the risk.
If we are talking about swimming pools, though, you are never at lower risk of infection than when you have just spent 30 minutes or more in a chlorinated pool. That's the whole point of the chlorine. People who get thrush after swimming will be getting it through a combination of irritation from the chlorine and being damp - both skin irritation and moisture are risk factors for vulval thrush. They don't need to shower to remove microbes - the chlorine will have done that - but they may need to do so to reduce skin irritation, if they are sensitive to chlorine.
myveryownelectrickitten · 30/03/2023 12:20
There are other fungal infections that aren’t candida that affect the skin of the groin/vulva - tinea, for one, which also affects men and is often passed on in gym settings and is often tested similarly to Candida. And a whole range of different candidas are around, not just c. albicans. It doesn’t sound like you know an awful lot about this - it’s well worth reading up on in more detail.
I’n pretty shocked at how stigmatising and denigrating many of the responses are in this thread. Seems even more obvious to me that this is a feminist issue if there is such a response which is basically along the lines of “ugh dirty older women shouldn’t use any public facilities”. I would surmise that you’d get far more fecal bacteria in a swimming pool from men, young men and young kids who don’t bother to wipe properly (ever seen a teenage boy’s skidmarked pants?) — than older women who would like to shower their vulva or perineum before or after swimming to keep comfortable and clean. But the visceral reaction to this is very telling.
MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 30/03/2023 12:07
Candida is the cause of all thrush. That is what thrush is.
You are correct that chlorine kills the normal vulval microbes as well - that is another contributing factor to thrush after swimming. But showering - the topic of this thread - won't affect that, either way. By the time you get out the pool, many of the normal 'good' bacteria of the vulva will be dead. You can't make them any less dead by showering, and more won't continue to die once you are out the water. As soon as you are out the water, the chlorine levels drop considerably and your skin starts to be recolonised. If anything, vigorous showering and soaping is likely to inhibit that process.
However, chlorine does often continue to irritate the skin for some time after swimming, which is why for some women, showering is a factor in reducing the risk of thrush.
myveryownelectrickitten · 30/03/2023 11:55
This is a total misunderstanding of how thrush happens. Bacterial imbalances in the vagina - or, in fact, chlorine - kill off the vaginal bacteria (including lactobacillus and others) which inhibit Candida (the cause of most thrush) and cause it to overgrow.
You need the right kind of bacteria in the vagina and vulva to prevent thrush. The wrong bacteria (and killing off the right ones) can cause thrush — as well as bacterial vaginosis and other skin sensitivities in the vulva. This is made more likely when you have low oestrogen or vaginal atrophy (thinning of the vaginal tissue during breastfeeding or after menopause) because the vaginal and vulval tissue becomes thinner, has less muscle tone, and is more sensitive to bacterial and fungal imbalances.
MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 30/03/2023 11:49
It’s often caused by bacteria from the bowel getting into the urethra or vagina
It's a yeast infection, so a type of fungal infection. About half of people have the yeast - Candida albicans - in their guts, where it is harmless but, if it gets in the wrong place, it can cause infection. So, as you say, good hygiene does reduce the risk.
If we are talking about swimming pools, though, you are never at lower risk of infection than when you have just spent 30 minutes or more in a chlorinated pool. That's the whole point of the chlorine. People who get thrush after swimming will be getting it through a combination of irritation from the chlorine and being damp - both skin irritation and moisture are risk factors for vulval thrush. They don't need to shower to remove microbes - the chlorine will have done that - but they may need to do so to reduce skin irritation, if they are sensitive to chlorine.
Introduction to fungal infections | DermNet
Introduction to fungal infections, Introduction to mycoses. Authoritative facts from DermNet New Zealand.
https://dermnetnz.org/topics/introduction-to-fungal-infections
myveryownelectrickitten · 30/03/2023 12:48
With great kindness — but I don’t think you really understand the issue. There are degrees of incontinence as with everything else. I’m presuming you’re pretty young or have very little experience of such things. The OP is writing specifically about susceptibility to thrush - should women who experience that also not swim? What about anyone with a disability or poor mobility? Would you never use a pool which offers hoisted swim classes and hydrotherapy for severely disabled people? You think toddlers in the pool never poo in their swim nappies? Do you think they drain and refill the entire pool each time that happens? 😂 Come on now.
ShirleyPhallus · 30/03/2023 12:30
No. A skid mark doesn’t have anywhere near the level of bacteria as actual faeces coming from someone who is incontinent.
myveryownelectrickitten · 30/03/2023 12:20
There are other fungal infections that aren’t candida that affect the skin of the groin/vulva - tinea, for one, which also affects men and is often passed on in gym settings and is often tested similarly to Candida. And a whole range of different candidas are around, not just c. albicans. It doesn’t sound like you know an awful lot about this - it’s well worth reading up on in more detail.
I’n pretty shocked at how stigmatising and denigrating many of the responses are in this thread. Seems even more obvious to me that this is a feminist issue if there is such a response which is basically along the lines of “ugh dirty older women shouldn’t use any public facilities”. I would surmise that you’d get far more fecal bacteria in a swimming pool from men, young men and young kids who don’t bother to wipe properly (ever seen a teenage boy’s skidmarked pants?) — than older women who would like to shower their vulva or perineum before or after swimming to keep comfortable and clean. But the visceral reaction to this is very telling.
MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 30/03/2023 12:07
Candida is the cause of all thrush. That is what thrush is.
You are correct that chlorine kills the normal vulval microbes as well - that is another contributing factor to thrush after swimming. But showering - the topic of this thread - won't affect that, either way. By the time you get out the pool, many of the normal 'good' bacteria of the vulva will be dead. You can't make them any less dead by showering, and more won't continue to die once you are out the water. As soon as you are out the water, the chlorine levels drop considerably and your skin starts to be recolonised. If anything, vigorous showering and soaping is likely to inhibit that process.
However, chlorine does often continue to irritate the skin for some time after swimming, which is why for some women, showering is a factor in reducing the risk of thrush.
myveryownelectrickitten · 30/03/2023 11:55
This is a total misunderstanding of how thrush happens. Bacterial imbalances in the vagina - or, in fact, chlorine - kill off the vaginal bacteria (including lactobacillus and others) which inhibit Candida (the cause of most thrush) and cause it to overgrow.
You need the right kind of bacteria in the vagina and vulva to prevent thrush. The wrong bacteria (and killing off the right ones) can cause thrush — as well as bacterial vaginosis and other skin sensitivities in the vulva. This is made more likely when you have low oestrogen or vaginal atrophy (thinning of the vaginal tissue during breastfeeding or after menopause) because the vaginal and vulval tissue becomes thinner, has less muscle tone, and is more sensitive to bacterial and fungal imbalances.
MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 30/03/2023 11:49
It’s often caused by bacteria from the bowel getting into the urethra or vagina
It's a yeast infection, so a type of fungal infection. About half of people have the yeast - Candida albicans - in their guts, where it is harmless but, if it gets in the wrong place, it can cause infection. So, as you say, good hygiene does reduce the risk.
If we are talking about swimming pools, though, you are never at lower risk of infection than when you have just spent 30 minutes or more in a chlorinated pool. That's the whole point of the chlorine. People who get thrush after swimming will be getting it through a combination of irritation from the chlorine and being damp - both skin irritation and moisture are risk factors for vulval thrush. They don't need to shower to remove microbes - the chlorine will have done that - but they may need to do so to reduce skin irritation, if they are sensitive to chlorine.
ShirleyPhallus · 30/03/2023 13:15
You’re making up a load of nonsense that I never said.
people who are faecally incontinent should not be using public swimming pools.
myveryownelectrickitten · 30/03/2023 12:48
With great kindness — but I don’t think you really understand the issue. There are degrees of incontinence as with everything else. I’m presuming you’re pretty young or have very little experience of such things. The OP is writing specifically about susceptibility to thrush - should women who experience that also not swim? What about anyone with a disability or poor mobility? Would you never use a pool which offers hoisted swim classes and hydrotherapy for severely disabled people? You think toddlers in the pool never poo in their swim nappies? Do you think they drain and refill the entire pool each time that happens? 😂 Come on now.
ShirleyPhallus · 30/03/2023 12:30
No. A skid mark doesn’t have anywhere near the level of bacteria as actual faeces coming from someone who is incontinent.
myveryownelectrickitten · 30/03/2023 12:20
There are other fungal infections that aren’t candida that affect the skin of the groin/vulva - tinea, for one, which also affects men and is often passed on in gym settings and is often tested similarly to Candida. And a whole range of different candidas are around, not just c. albicans. It doesn’t sound like you know an awful lot about this - it’s well worth reading up on in more detail.
I’n pretty shocked at how stigmatising and denigrating many of the responses are in this thread. Seems even more obvious to me that this is a feminist issue if there is such a response which is basically along the lines of “ugh dirty older women shouldn’t use any public facilities”. I would surmise that you’d get far more fecal bacteria in a swimming pool from men, young men and young kids who don’t bother to wipe properly (ever seen a teenage boy’s skidmarked pants?) — than older women who would like to shower their vulva or perineum before or after swimming to keep comfortable and clean. But the visceral reaction to this is very telling.
MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 30/03/2023 12:07
Candida is the cause of all thrush. That is what thrush is.
You are correct that chlorine kills the normal vulval microbes as well - that is another contributing factor to thrush after swimming. But showering - the topic of this thread - won't affect that, either way. By the time you get out the pool, many of the normal 'good' bacteria of the vulva will be dead. You can't make them any less dead by showering, and more won't continue to die once you are out the water. As soon as you are out the water, the chlorine levels drop considerably and your skin starts to be recolonised. If anything, vigorous showering and soaping is likely to inhibit that process.
However, chlorine does often continue to irritate the skin for some time after swimming, which is why for some women, showering is a factor in reducing the risk of thrush.
myveryownelectrickitten · 30/03/2023 11:55
This is a total misunderstanding of how thrush happens. Bacterial imbalances in the vagina - or, in fact, chlorine - kill off the vaginal bacteria (including lactobacillus and others) which inhibit Candida (the cause of most thrush) and cause it to overgrow.
You need the right kind of bacteria in the vagina and vulva to prevent thrush. The wrong bacteria (and killing off the right ones) can cause thrush — as well as bacterial vaginosis and other skin sensitivities in the vulva. This is made more likely when you have low oestrogen or vaginal atrophy (thinning of the vaginal tissue during breastfeeding or after menopause) because the vaginal and vulval tissue becomes thinner, has less muscle tone, and is more sensitive to bacterial and fungal imbalances.
MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 30/03/2023 11:49
It’s often caused by bacteria from the bowel getting into the urethra or vagina
It's a yeast infection, so a type of fungal infection. About half of people have the yeast - Candida albicans - in their guts, where it is harmless but, if it gets in the wrong place, it can cause infection. So, as you say, good hygiene does reduce the risk.
If we are talking about swimming pools, though, you are never at lower risk of infection than when you have just spent 30 minutes or more in a chlorinated pool. That's the whole point of the chlorine. People who get thrush after swimming will be getting it through a combination of irritation from the chlorine and being damp - both skin irritation and moisture are risk factors for vulval thrush. They don't need to shower to remove microbes - the chlorine will have done that - but they may need to do so to reduce skin irritation, if they are sensitive to chlorine.
00100001 · 30/03/2023 08:26
Fixed overhead showers are about hygiene, robustness and vandalism.
If you put a domestic style shower hose in with the public within days it will be broken, twisted, shower head removed, someone will have rubbed it on their genitals, had a "special massage" etc.
The public are disgusting and vandals.
Trekkingaway · 30/03/2023 14:42
Ugh, now I feel queasy about hotel showers.
00100001 · 30/03/2023 08:26
Fixed overhead showers are about hygiene, robustness and vandalism.
If you put a domestic style shower hose in with the public within days it will be broken, twisted, shower head removed, someone will have rubbed it on their genitals, had a "special massage" etc.
The public are disgusting and vandals.
myveryownelectrickitten · 30/03/2023 10:22
Surely the entire point is that if you just use only water to clean - as those of us with sensitive bits down there often do - you need a handheld shower?
No-one is affecting douching or aiming a high pressure water jet at it. I’m assuming all those who don’t think it’s an issue don’t have (a) overly reactive or sensitive vulva skin (b) any tags/skin issues/damage from birth injuries (c) a tendency to get thrush, eczema, piles or UTIs, all problems that require a bit more careful showering with plain water down there?
Just because you don’t think it’s an issue, and don’t think it’s feminist issue, doesn’t mean that some women don’t have this problem. Try having for example a complex 2b or 3 (or even 4th degree) tear, episiotomy and repair and having residual scars/skin issues/need to clean skin folds and scars very well with plain water on a permanent basis afterwards, and then see whether you don’t think it’s a problem. Jesus.
Clymene · 30/03/2023 09:33
You don't need to use soap or 'hygiene products' (whatever the hell they are) on your labia or vagina. If you upset the pH balance of your vagina and labia, you are more likely to get UTIs and have issues.
What is a feminist issue is women being told our genitals smell and we need to scrub them to keep them clean. We don't.
myveryownelectrickitten · 30/03/2023 10:40
How do you get water from an overhead shower head to clean your perineum without basically turning upside down??!?!
ShirleyPhallus · 30/03/2023 10:32
I’m really sorry that that’s happened to you as it sounds painful to deal with
i don’t think anyone is being rude though, I just literally cannot understand how you couldn’t get clean with the water from a fixed shower head. The water flows down so even if you cupped it in your hands and rinsed like that, or bent over slightly to get the flow directed a bit more, or whatever then basically water is still working in gravity and will flow over your genitals if you’re standing underneath the shower. I just can’t see how a handheld one is that different to a fixed one even with all the issues you describe
myveryownelectrickitten · 30/03/2023 10:27
(And I’ve chosen not to have my vulva reshaped and “fixed” to try to make it look aesthetically “nicer” after birth injuries, because I don’t believe women should have to conform to some kind of aesthetic that says vaginas and vulvas should show no evidence of ever having given birth. Now that’s a feminist issue!
It doesn’t bother me, apart from the need to make sure the skin is properly clean around the scars/tags. It’s great for you if you don’t have this/have never experienced this. But don’t go about denigrating the experience of women who do.)
ZeroFuchsGiven · 30/03/2023 15:52
I have only read up to this point no further BUT the thought of being in swimming pool showers and washing my hair and face knowing you could have been in there before me with the shower head pretty much up your fanjo makes me feel a bit queasy tbh!
#YesToOverheadFixedShowers
myveryownelectrickitten · 30/03/2023 10:40
How do you get water from an overhead shower head to clean your perineum without basically turning upside down??!?!
ShirleyPhallus · 30/03/2023 10:32
I’m really sorry that that’s happened to you as it sounds painful to deal with
i don’t think anyone is being rude though, I just literally cannot understand how you couldn’t get clean with the water from a fixed shower head. The water flows down so even if you cupped it in your hands and rinsed like that, or bent over slightly to get the flow directed a bit more, or whatever then basically water is still working in gravity and will flow over your genitals if you’re standing underneath the shower. I just can’t see how a handheld one is that different to a fixed one even with all the issues you describe
myveryownelectrickitten · 30/03/2023 10:27
(And I’ve chosen not to have my vulva reshaped and “fixed” to try to make it look aesthetically “nicer” after birth injuries, because I don’t believe women should have to conform to some kind of aesthetic that says vaginas and vulvas should show no evidence of ever having given birth. Now that’s a feminist issue!
It doesn’t bother me, apart from the need to make sure the skin is properly clean around the scars/tags. It’s great for you if you don’t have this/have never experienced this. But don’t go about denigrating the experience of women who do.)
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