Fixed showers - a feminist issue

[trytopullyoursocksup]

Another poster said on the swimming thread -
"but women are condemned to get thrush unless they can get home in ten min to wash the pool yuck out of their vulva."

I know showering in a cozzie makes it worse but seriously I cannot believe this is the first time I have seen / heard another woman mention this.

I hate fixed overhead showers.

In many cultures it is normal to have a bidet or other means of delivering running water near the toilet.

In our culture (british) I am old enough to remember when baths were standard and showers were "modern". now showers are standard and when they are fixed overhead only (in a hotel or in a house) and there is no bath (you can actually wash under the tap in a bath if the taps are on the long side, you can squat with your knees apart and get a decent wash) - I never feel clean.

I am prone to thrush, UTIs and various forms of dermatitis when I am run down and being scrupulously clean at all times really helps with this.

Who decided that overhead showers are enough and how can we be unembarrassed enough to do something about it?

[myveryownelectrickitten]

@ComtesseDeSpair

But what it ultimately comes down to is does your individual quite specific need to clean your perineum in a quite specific way, outweigh the practicalities (durability, hygiene, anti-vandalism, cost) of public shower facilities installing fixed shower heads as standard? And I’m going to say no, it doesn’t. Public facilities have to take into account the broad needs of all customers and the needs of the company providing them. It would be nice if they were perfect in every way for all of us, but they’re never going to be. That isn’t the same as saying you don’t have a need, just that this isn’t one this particular facility needs to accommodate.

But lots of people have this need, especially as they get older and have medical issues with skin, piles, weight, UTI problems, problems with bowel function, all sorts of things that young and fit people assume never happens to them. I don’t want to be particularly specific, but as you get older and your skin changes and your bowel function changes, you will find you increasingly need to wash here in a different way, especially post menopause.

I’m not expecting swimming pools to change because of this, and probably neither is the OP. But for those on the thread airily dismissing this ad a issue, you are basically suggesting that everyone who says it’s an issue for them is just an individual instance who can be told they don’t matter. But this is pretty ageist and ableist. Have any issues with skin/bowel function/vulva/obesity/bending over in the shower/UTIs etc? Swimming is not for you, you freak! Is how you’re basically coming across.

[ifIwerenotanandroid]

A free shower head is useful at home for other reasons, such as washing your hair without having a shower, or cleaning the bath. In fact when our bathroom was installed the guy showed me the shower & asked me if I wanted the capturing piece fitted (no idea what it's called - it's a clear plastic loop which means you can't lift the shower head out), telling me most people leave the shower head free so they can rinse the bath after cleaning it. Presumably it's also useful for shampooing the dog or whatever else people get up to.

[ComtesseDeSpair]

@myveryownelectrickitten

But lots of people have this need, especially as they get older and have medical issues with skin, piles, weight, UTI problems, problems with bowel function, all sorts of things that young and fit people assume never happens to them. I don’t want to be particularly specific, but as you get older and your skin changes and your bowel function changes, you will find you increasingly need to wash here in a different way, especially post menopause.

I’m not expecting swimming pools to change because of this, and probably neither is the OP. But for those on the thread airily dismissing this ad a issue, you are basically suggesting that everyone who says it’s an issue for them is just an individual instance who can be told they don’t matter. But this is pretty ageist and ableist. Have any issues with skin/bowel function/vulva/obesity/bending over in the shower/UTIs etc? Swimming is not for you, you freak! Is how you’re basically coming across.

Absolutely fair enough, in that everyone has the right to go swimming and to feel that the facilities aren’t great for their particular issue.

But some of your points are part of the reason the showers are fixed. Would you want to use a shower head after a stranger with bowel problems had been holding it underneath their nethers to wash fecal matter off themselves?

[Clymene]

No you don't @KvotheTheBloodless

www.devonsexualhealth.nhs.uk/your-sexual-health/genital-hygiene-our-tips/

[Aphrathestorm]

I've never had thrush.

I thought it was often from overwashing/using products?

I was once given advice to cover the urethra with Vaseline before sex to avoid UTIs. Cutting alcohol and caffeine also helps. As does peeing after sex.

[MissLucyEyelesbarrow]

But this is pretty ageist and ableist. Have any issues with skin/bowel function/vulva/obesity/bending over in the shower/UTIs etc? Swimming is not for you, you freak! Is how you’re basically coming across

Literally no one is saying that. The thread asks whether fixed-head showers are a feminist issue and @ComtesseDeSpair specifically acknowledges that people can have different needs.

As someone who is post-menopause and has a disability, I do not recognise this mysterious post-menopausal need you describe:

I don’t want to be particularly specific, but as you get older and your skin changes and your bowel function changes, you will find you increasingly need to wash here in a different way, especially post menopause.

I am perfectly prepared to believe that you have a need that is different from mine but please do not generalise and assume that your need applies to everyone older or disabled. You could equally argue that, as we get older and frailer, infection control becomes more important, so it's particularly important that we aren't blasting bacteria from moveable shower heads onto our perineums.

[SiobhanSharpe]

At one health club I used to belong to they changed the showers to fixed head and many women, including me, complained. They're just too inflexible for reasonable cleaning of any part of the body between the waist and the knee, IMO. (They weren't power showers.)
They changed them back fairly quickly.

[blebbleb]

I've never had to use the smaller shower head attachment on my bits, the fixed shower part is fine. Unless you have mobility issues, I don't see why you can't bend slightly in the direction of the water?

[myveryownelectrickitten]

@Aphrathestorm

I've never had thrush.

I thought it was often from overwashing/using products?

I was once given advice to cover the urethra with Vaseline before sex to avoid UTIs. Cutting alcohol and caffeine also helps. As does peeing after sex.

It’s often caused by bacteria from the bowel getting into the urethra or vagina. Which is why you need to clean the perineum throughly to avoid it in some cases. Women’s anatomy makes this far more likely, obviously, than men’s. And women’s anatomy varies, so some women are more prone to thrush or UTIs because they gave shorter urethras which are nearer to the vagina/shorter perineums etc. Some women have reactive vulval skin or are prone to eczema there or other conditions (especially after menopause when many women have vaginal atrophy), which means having to shower carefully with plain water or emollients, and not letting shampoo etc. get into skin folds.

Not to be too graphic, but after birth injuries, or as you get older, muscle tone in the anal sphincter (and urethra / vagina) weakens — whether you are doing your pelvic floor exercises or not. This means it’s even more important to be able to clean the vulva properly with water for many women.

I’m not suggesting that swimming pools put in handheld showers - but, like the OP, I agree it’s an issue for many women. And also disproportionately for women rather than men, as men don’t tend to have as many things that can go wrong with their urethra/genital skin/membranes as women do. And it’s also disproportionately an issue for older people as well.

[myveryownelectrickitten]

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

But this is pretty ageist and ableist. Have any issues with skin/bowel function/vulva/obesity/bending over in the shower/UTIs etc? Swimming is not for you, you freak! Is how you’re basically coming across

Literally no one is saying that. The thread asks whether fixed-head showers are a feminist issue and @ComtesseDeSpair specifically acknowledges that people can have different needs.

As someone who is post-menopause and has a disability, I do not recognise this mysterious post-menopausal need you describe:

I don’t want to be particularly specific, but as you get older and your skin changes and your bowel function changes, you will find you increasingly need to wash here in a different way, especially post menopause.

I am perfectly prepared to believe that you have a need that is different from mine but please do not generalise and assume that your need applies to everyone older or disabled. You could equally argue that, as we get older and frailer, infection control becomes more important, so it's particularly important that we aren't blasting bacteria from moveable shower heads onto our perineums.

To be a bit more graphic (and this doesn’t happen to me, as I’m only in my 40s; but I have older female relatives who need care and often intimate care) — but as you get older, muscle tone in the anal sphincter decreases and it’s a normal part of ageing to experience a degree of leakage and incontinence, sometimes very minor, sometimes it can be treated and sometimes not. Just as many women experience a degree of urine leakage, especially after birth. This often disproportionately affects women, because vulval and perineal sphincter tone and skin flora are affected by declining oestrogen after the menopause no matter how much pelvic floor exercise you do.

If you are older and don’t experience this - it’s great for you! You’re really lucky, and probably nice and fit, too. But don’t assume lots of people don’t have this problem. They just aren’t telling you about it because it’s pretty embarrassing and private, obviously. (I attended a hospital “vulva clinic” after having birth injuries for vulval and perineal issues, and there were older women queuing all day literally out of the doors for their appointments - it was one of the areas of the NHS where there was the most demand for a hugely underfunded service. Women would be getting there at 9am and queuing until 5.)

So just saying things like “but why can’t you just bend over and sluice the water around a bit?” is completely not understanding the reality of bodily issues for many people, probably older, fatter, less mobile, mostly female people. (Sounds like a feminist issue to me, anyway.)

[ShirleyPhallus]

@myveryownelectrickitten

But lots of people have this need, especially as they get older and have medical issues with skin, piles, weight, UTI problems, problems with bowel function, all sorts of things that young and fit people assume never happens to them. I don’t want to be particularly specific, but as you get older and your skin changes and your bowel function changes, you will find you increasingly need to wash here in a different way, especially post menopause.

I’m not expecting swimming pools to change because of this, and probably neither is the OP. But for those on the thread airily dismissing this ad a issue, you are basically suggesting that everyone who says it’s an issue for them is just an individual instance who can be told they don’t matter. But this is pretty ageist and ableist. Have any issues with skin/bowel function/vulva/obesity/bending over in the shower/UTIs etc? Swimming is not for you, you freak! Is how you’re basically coming across.

I don’t think anyone who has bowel function issues to the degree that they need a specific shower head attachment to clean themselves in the shower should be using a public swimming pool tbh

[MissLucyEyelesbarrow]

It’s often caused by bacteria from the bowel getting into the urethra or vagina

It's a yeast infection, so a type of fungal infection. About half of people have the yeast - Candida albicans - in their guts, where it is harmless but, if it gets in the wrong place, it can cause infection. So, as you say, good hygiene does reduce the risk.

If we are talking about swimming pools, though, you are never at lower risk of infection than when you have just spent 30 minutes or more in a chlorinated pool. That's the whole point of the chlorine. People who get thrush after swimming will be getting it through a combination of irritation from the chlorine and being damp - both skin irritation and moisture are risk factors for vulval thrush. They don't need to shower to remove microbes - the chlorine will have done that - but they may need to do so to reduce skin irritation, if they are sensitive to chlorine.

[ShirleyPhallus]

@myveryownelectrickitten

To be a bit more graphic (and this doesn’t happen to me, as I’m only in my 40s; but I have older female relatives who need care and often intimate care) — but as you get older, muscle tone in the anal sphincter decreases and it’s a normal part of ageing to experience a degree of leakage and incontinence, sometimes very minor, sometimes it can be treated and sometimes not. Just as many women experience a degree of urine leakage, especially after birth. This often disproportionately affects women, because vulval and perineal sphincter tone and skin flora are affected by declining oestrogen after the menopause no matter how much pelvic floor exercise you do.

If you are older and don’t experience this - it’s great for you! You’re really lucky, and probably nice and fit, too. But don’t assume lots of people don’t have this problem. They just aren’t telling you about it because it’s pretty embarrassing and private, obviously. (I attended a hospital “vulva clinic” after having birth injuries for vulval and perineal issues, and there were older women queuing all day literally out of the doors for their appointments - it was one of the areas of the NHS where there was the most demand for a hugely underfunded service. Women would be getting there at 9am and queuing until 5.)

So just saying things like “but why can’t you just bend over and sluice the water around a bit?” is completely not understanding the reality of bodily issues for many people, probably older, fatter, less mobile, mostly female people. (Sounds like a feminist issue to me, anyway.)

but as you get older, muscle tone in the anal sphincter decreases and it’s a normal part of ageing to experience a degree of leakage and incontinence

Sorry but this is nuts. If you experience faecal incontinence then the onus isn’t on a gym to provide an appropriate shower head to clean yourself up, it’s up to you not to attend public swimming sessions.

[myveryownelectrickitten]

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

It’s often caused by bacteria from the bowel getting into the urethra or vagina

It's a yeast infection, so a type of fungal infection. About half of people have the yeast - Candida albicans - in their guts, where it is harmless but, if it gets in the wrong place, it can cause infection. So, as you say, good hygiene does reduce the risk.

If we are talking about swimming pools, though, you are never at lower risk of infection than when you have just spent 30 minutes or more in a chlorinated pool. That's the whole point of the chlorine. People who get thrush after swimming will be getting it through a combination of irritation from the chlorine and being damp - both skin irritation and moisture are risk factors for vulval thrush. They don't need to shower to remove microbes - the chlorine will have done that - but they may need to do so to reduce skin irritation, if they are sensitive to chlorine.

This is a total misunderstanding of how thrush happens. Bacterial imbalances in the vagina - or, in fact, chlorine - kill off the vaginal bacteria (including lactobacillus and others) which inhibit Candida (the cause of most thrush) and cause it to overgrow.

You need the right kind of bacteria in the vagina and vulva to prevent thrush. The wrong bacteria (and killing off the right ones) can cause thrush — as well as bacterial vaginosis and other skin sensitivities in the vulva. This is made more likely when you have low oestrogen or vaginal atrophy (thinning of the vaginal tissue during breastfeeding or after menopause) because the vaginal and vulval tissue becomes thinner, has less muscle tone, and is more sensitive to bacterial and fungal imbalances.

[MissLucyEyelesbarrow]

@myveryownelectrickitten

This is a total misunderstanding of how thrush happens. Bacterial imbalances in the vagina - or, in fact, chlorine - kill off the vaginal bacteria (including lactobacillus and others) which inhibit Candida (the cause of most thrush) and cause it to overgrow.

You need the right kind of bacteria in the vagina and vulva to prevent thrush. The wrong bacteria (and killing off the right ones) can cause thrush — as well as bacterial vaginosis and other skin sensitivities in the vulva. This is made more likely when you have low oestrogen or vaginal atrophy (thinning of the vaginal tissue during breastfeeding or after menopause) because the vaginal and vulval tissue becomes thinner, has less muscle tone, and is more sensitive to bacterial and fungal imbalances.

Candida is the cause of all thrush. That is what thrush is.

You are correct that chlorine kills the normal vulval microbes as well - that is another contributing factor to thrush after swimming. But showering - the topic of this thread - won't affect that, either way. By the time you get out the pool, many of the normal 'good' bacteria of the vulva will be dead. You can't make them any less dead by showering, and more won't continue to die once you are out the water. As soon as you are out the water, the chlorine levels drop considerably and your skin starts to be recolonised. If anything, vigorous showering and soaping is likely to inhibit that process.

However, chlorine does often continue to irritate the skin for some time after swimming, which is why for some women, showering is a factor in reducing the risk of thrush.

[MissEira]

@00100001

Fixed overhead showers are about hygiene, robustness and vandalism.

If you put a domestic style shower hose in with the public within days it will be broken, twisted, shower head removed, someone will have rubbed it on their genitals, had a "special massage" etc.


The public are disgusting and vandals.

This

[myveryownelectrickitten]

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

Candida is the cause of all thrush. That is what thrush is.

You are correct that chlorine kills the normal vulval microbes as well - that is another contributing factor to thrush after swimming. But showering - the topic of this thread - won't affect that, either way. By the time you get out the pool, many of the normal 'good' bacteria of the vulva will be dead. You can't make them any less dead by showering, and more won't continue to die once you are out the water. As soon as you are out the water, the chlorine levels drop considerably and your skin starts to be recolonised. If anything, vigorous showering and soaping is likely to inhibit that process.

However, chlorine does often continue to irritate the skin for some time after swimming, which is why for some women, showering is a factor in reducing the risk of thrush.

There are other fungal infections that aren’t candida that affect the skin of the groin/vulva - tinea, for one, which also affects men and is often passed on in gym settings and is often tested similarly to Candida. And a whole range of different candidas are around, not just c. albicans. It doesn’t sound like you know an awful lot about this - it’s well worth reading up on in more detail.

I’n pretty shocked at how stigmatising and denigrating many of the responses are in this thread. Seems even more obvious to me that this is a feminist issue if there is such a response which is basically along the lines of “ugh dirty older women shouldn’t use any public facilities”. I would surmise that you’d get far more fecal bacteria in a swimming pool from men, young men and young kids who don’t bother to wipe properly (ever seen a teenage boy’s skidmarked pants?) — than older women who would like to shower their vulva or perineum before or after swimming to keep comfortable and clean. But the visceral reaction to this is very telling.

[myveryownelectrickitten]

*treated (not tested)

[RashOfBees]

I can see why perfectly that a downward shower isn’t at a good angle to wash genitalia properly, but the bit I’m not sure about is why I’m not understanding why hands/flannel/sponge aren’t sufficient? Especially for occasional showers at a gym. Perfect for getting between folds of skin, surely. I don’t think anyone is saying that it’s not important to wash with water, are they?

[ShirleyPhallus]

@myveryownelectrickitten

There are other fungal infections that aren’t candida that affect the skin of the groin/vulva - tinea, for one, which also affects men and is often passed on in gym settings and is often tested similarly to Candida. And a whole range of different candidas are around, not just c. albicans. It doesn’t sound like you know an awful lot about this - it’s well worth reading up on in more detail.

I’n pretty shocked at how stigmatising and denigrating many of the responses are in this thread. Seems even more obvious to me that this is a feminist issue if there is such a response which is basically along the lines of “ugh dirty older women shouldn’t use any public facilities”. I would surmise that you’d get far more fecal bacteria in a swimming pool from men, young men and young kids who don’t bother to wipe properly (ever seen a teenage boy’s skidmarked pants?) — than older women who would like to shower their vulva or perineum before or after swimming to keep comfortable and clean. But the visceral reaction to this is very telling.

No. A skid mark doesn’t have anywhere near the level of bacteria as actual faeces coming from someone who is incontinent.

[ComtesseDeSpair]

I think we’re wandering off topic with the specifics of genital washing here. Fixed shower heads are clearly an inconvenience for a whole range of people with specific needs, which ranges from some obese people to some older people to some disabled people to people who don’t want their hair to get wet, and includes some women. It isn’t specifically a feminist issue.

However, all of these people - and surely particularly the women with needy vulvas and perineums who need to make sure they’re washed after swimming - would be significantly more inconvenienced if there were no showers available at all because the hoses and heads had been vandalised or stolen. Hence the durable fixed shower is the most effective solution. Bending that practicality around into an interpretation of “ugh dirty older women shouldn’t use any public facilities” is a real stretch.

[TheYearOfSmallThings]

I don't think it's a feminist issue, but I will fully join in your dislike of fixed showers OP. I would never have one in my home, and I hate them in hotels and holiday villas.

However the ones at the pool aren't really meant for a proper wash - they are just to rinse the chlorine off your skin and hair and stop it from damaging the fibres in your swimsuit.

[Greenolivetrees]

In short, yes. Those of us prone to thrush need to wash water directly into the vulva area to clean any… um… residue. I hand to open up the labia, 1 to hold shower head to direct it where it needs to go.

With a fixed showerhead I use 1 hand to open vulva and the other to splash lots of water on it, surely it's the same thing? Just takes a little longer.

[Greenolivetrees]

Also, like most people I take a proper shower at home after a swim. Nobody is going to get clean while showering in a swimsuit anyway.

[ComtesseDeSpair]

@Greenolivetrees

Also, like most people I take a proper shower at home after a swim. Nobody is going to get clean while showering in a swimsuit anyway.

I think this is probably the more pressing feminist issue tbh: the social and cultural conditioning which means so many women go to inconvenient pains and lengths to keep their bodies covered in the shower and changing room when it would be easier and more efficient to shower naked and dry and dress without simultaneously trying to hold a towel around themselves and put on knickers (and I don’t want to start a trans women debate on this, as women have been showering in their cossies at the swimming pool and doing the towel dance around other women since long before trans was a “thing”.)