Explaining surrogacy to kids when I'm anti surrogacy

[Sussyknowsthemeaningoflife]

Apologies for the clunky title. We have just found out a member of extended family is expecting via surrogate. I am deeply deeply uncomfortable with this, but I'm capable of keeping my views to myself ( forever more?) But how on earth do I explain surrogacy to my own kids?
I'm not anti this new baby who is due any day, I'm not anti this family member. But I very strongly disagree with the route they have chosen to take.
My dd in particular (12) is going to watch me very closely and ask how I REALLY feel. We have age appropriate feminist discussions all the time. How do I discuss this with her?

I also dislike using donor eggs to be honest which uses a younger poorer woman as commodities. Even IVF egg sharing is only done because it makes it cheaper not out of the kindness of hearts. Surrogacy I'd only be ok with a sibling or close relative doing it so baby remains in the family. I'm completely against commercial or stranger surrogacy.

@JustOneDD as I said, that was the struggle I had when going through it. It's OK to say out loud that IVF wasn't the right decision for me. No one should force an woman going through infertility to go through the process.

As for other medical treatments, it depends the situation I find myself in. I cannot say to any one else don't have endo treatment, that's not my call.

Someone asked me how I felt about IVF and I talked about my own internal struggle with my own journey.

Children are not product. Their mothers are not a production line. Medicine, my arse.

Children aren't gifts to give to people though.

Every one seems to forget the baby in these instances, who is taken away from the person it has shared blood with, heard 24/7 since it's ears were developed, shared a microbiome with, the only human connection it has ever known, stripped away from the person who has helped regulate it's heartbeat and feelings and would be deprived the opportunity of mothers milk to further develop its gut microbiome.

Believe it or not, it creates a traumatic experience for that baby. Whether or not you think it's important because it will be forgotten doesn't mean that trauma doesn't exist.

But all that matters is the adults in this situation, right? 🤔

But it’s true, there is exploitation and coercion in medicine. We just choose to overlook it as it benefits us.

What kind of topsy turvy whataboutery is this? Which medicine results in someone commissioning a child?

I'm sure a lot of the babies stolen from Irish women ended up in the loving arms of their adoptive parents.

I agree that facts are important here and speaking of

"Also as another poster has said, ‘surrogacy’ has been around since the beginning of time with women family members of infertile wives being impregnated by the husband."

Is a little bit disingenuous, it ignores how this would be rape or at best be an affair within a marriage. How much choice did these female family members have? Slavery is a fact. Women were kept as slaves and were 'used' as 'surrogates'. Were the men 'impregnating' or raping these women in order to get them pregnant? I suppose the description of the facts and how they are presented is important. Surrogacy has existed through the centuries but under what circumstances, and as a modern society with developed medical techniques such as IVF, how does that fit with individual autonomy, choice and consent, which is also a fact (it is given or it is not)?

I don't consider the Bible to be a factual document so other sources will be required but if you look at stories told in the Bible for historical relevance to surrogacy I would direct you to the story of Hagar.

Very few people here are talking about what a wonderful experience surrogacy is for the baby. Lots of discussion about how happy the grown ups are....

I also think at 12 she's capable of understanding that you will have a view on it. I'd be telling her why I think surrogacy is abhorrent, tbh.

I think you have made a good call op. We have adopted children amongst our friends and family, which I know is very different, but the point is the "blood" children don't look at or treat them as "other". I think they take the lead from the adults. When they were little we just used factual terms to explain, but there really was very little explanation needed. Surrogacy is a difficult and emotive subject and whilst I understand the family members being surrogates is a completely different issue, I find it hard to separate the celebration around surrogacy with the exploitation that is so often ignored.

As it’s going ahead, I think your main priority is the child that will be a part of your family. I would probably keep my opinions to myself and just keep it factual. If your 12 year old can’t be relied on to keep your opinions to herself I don’t think she’s mature enough to really understand the ethical implications and why surrogacy is wrong.

@Sussyknowsthemeaningoflife I'd explain to her that this is not what you would chose for yourself because <insert yout own reasons>
I'd explain why Family Member chose that route (if you know - but I'm assuming either its either a gay couple or a woman with infertility). And they felt they had no other chice to have a child of their own.
And that the way/reasons that Baby came to the world should NEVER have an impact on the way we treat Baby (eg also in the case of rape, adoption, egg or sperm donation etc etc). Baby should be loved regardless.

If your dd asks how you are judging Family Member to go down that route, i'd highlight that there are MANY different situations when people make different choices (eg abortion, being a pacifist, vegan for ethical reasons etc etc). You don't agree with the choice BUT they get to make their own choices - that are (afterall) totally legal.
I think that's an important point because it affects many other subjects that you/your dd might feel very strongly about but we still need to stay mindful of respecting other people's pov (imo)

Where I'd have much more difficulty to explain and be 'neutral' is they have gone abroad, 'bought' the surrogate and then let her down in various ways (eg if the woman needs hospital care etc... and then don't want to pay for it etc...)

@Twizbe , I've met a few women that felt the same than you about IVF.
There are many reasons why one choses to go down the IVF route or not. Just like there are many reasons why some women decide to carry on doing many many IVF (I'm talking 10~20) when others stop after 1 or 2. (NOT down to financial reasons).

No woman should ever be judged or shame about how they feel about the fertility/ways they conceived or decide NOT to conceive.

Adoption finds parents for children, surrogacy creates children for parents. Children are at the centre of the former, adults are at the centre of the latter.

@MyriadOfTravels thank you.

This is of topic slightly but I disagree that a 12 should keep his or her opinions to herself/himself. It's not completely irrelevant to the topic of surrogacy but slightly as a tangent - as a controversial topic which requires discussion so to understand the circumstances and take an informed position, a child, especially one who is at a particular age of learning and discovering themselves and the complex world around them, should share their views and ask questions.
It may be necessary to explain how those opinions are shared or even what type of appropriate language should be used to ask questions of the commissioning couple but I do think children should be encouraged to talk about this and not to keep their opinions to themselves.

If that means blurting it out rather than framing it politely I'd rather the former than nothing at all. If we can't talk about it then there must be reason to be embarrassed, that might say more about surrogacy as the surrogate born child to the pre-teenager than is intended.

Because someone's 'desperate want' matters more than a baby's wellbeing?

I would love to watch a documentary or read a book from the child’s point of view. Surrogacy started in the 80s so there must be surrogate babies who are adults now, does anyone know if anything like that exists?

But that’s also the same with adoption.

Adoption, ultimately, is to benefit the child, and remove them from an unsafe or unsuitable home and place them in a safe environment in which they are wanted and loved. It is traumatic, but the child was not created to suffer that trauma, it was just created. It's going to be in the world one way or any other, so adoption happens to better its life.

Surrogacy is the use of a woman for the intentional creation of a child with the intention of putting that child through trauma in order to benefit the commissioning parents.

They're completely different.

I disagree with surrogacy generally, especially any kind of paid surrogacy.

I would worry also about altruistic surrogacy, in how absolutely altruistic you could be if your sister or sister in law or friend (and partner if applicable) was bringing up a child in close quarters to you and you disagreed with their parenting style. Or their relationship breaks down and their partner takes the child away. Or you fall out with your sibling over something. I am sure these kinds of things are ironed out before the agreement is made, but still.

In response to the post, I think good advice has been given. I think it's possible to let a 12-year old know some of what you think, without telling all, and also for them to understand that others can come to different points of view.

Can I suggest that you talk about the 'surrogate mother' not 'the surrogate'.

The mother who grows and carries the baby feeds it with her own blood, she will leave a genetic footprint on the child and it will leave one on her.

The mother is not an inert vessel. She is a mother.

You could search you tube for Jessica Kern and this is not a documentary but statements have been pulled from surrogate-born adults who give testimony in official settings.

https://youtube.com/@donorkinderenbelgie6060

It's not strictly surrogacy related but I found a documentary about donor conceived children called Our Father on Netflix or Anonymous Father's Day Vimeo interesting.

I'd also like to see a documentary solely on surrogate born children to talk about all their experiences, good and bad, as a focus on the parents is shown in documentaries all the time. Brian Dowling and his husband is doing one, I think Tom Daley's has been cancelled (supposedly due to training schedules but could it be also because of public awareness growing on surrogacy?). The children of Jake and Hannah Graf are far, far to young to participate with their views as they are very young but their documentary was on C4 and was called Our Miracle Baby or something similar.

Pregnancy isn't always straight forward.

What happens if the pregnancy is causing harm to the woman carrying the baby? Lets say surrogate mum finds out she has cancer shortly after the start of the pregnancy. The chemo can cause serious birth defects. Does the surrogate get to chose abortion and the best treatment for her?

What if they find out the baby has some form of disability who gets to choose whether an abortion happens?

With IVF a woman normally takes drugs to simulate the supply of ova, these are harvested in line with her menstrual cycle.

But if they are being harvested and transplanted into a different women then that woman's cycle has to be synched to he donor woman, that can involve a lot of medication.

What if the couple want a second child?

Here is a podcast @ArnoldArnoldArnoldRimmer of a young woman discussing the death of her mother as a result of complications of surrogacy.

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/venus-rising/id1481872967?i=1000560312080

It is very concerning that young girls are being raised to be kind and get involved in surrogacy and/or egg donation when they grow up. Already we are seeing young women who saw their mothers be a surrogate mother growing up and also being surrogate mothers. The Travelling Surrogate (who can be found on YouTube) has happy memories of family holidays paid for by commissioning parents as a post birth treat. No wonder she had the idea of being a surrogate mother to enjoy maternity leave and a year of travel funded by the arrangement. She seems to have forgotten the bit about seeing her mother have a life threatening haemorrhage. 🤷‍♀️

Abortion isn’t a moral dilemma. There is only one person involved and that is the pregnant woman.