If you want to debate, rather than derail another, very important thread, come here.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I want to get all the shit off the Leah thread. If you want to debate NAMALT and similar, please do it here.

If my partner had been killed in a terror attack it would still be xenophobic to say Muslims are terrorists. I'm just sick of the casual bigotry on here.

To start us off if Muslims caused 90% of violent crime, you might have a point. If they committed almost 100% of sexual assaults, you might have a point. But they don't, men do.

Why would you call Muslims terrorists if they committed the majority of sexual offences? It's the majority of terrorism offences that they commit.

I'm inclined to agree it's bad to generalise about any demographic tbh because even if they commit almost all of the crimes this still only represents a tiny proportion of that demographic. Like a few percent.

I think it's better to focus on stopping the actual criminals rather than just veering off into moaning about men/muslims/etc in general. We need to look at practical solutions like increased sentencing and methods of policing. The rest of it is just distracting from the solution.

To start us off if Muslims caused 90% of violent crime, you might have a point. If they committed almost 100% of sexual assaults, you might have a point. But they don't, men do.

Some Muslims. Some men.

It's accurate to say 'most sex offenders are men' it's not accurate to say 'most men are sex offenders'.

Like you could say 'all the terrorists involved in 9/11 were Muslim' but it's not accurate to say 'all Muslims were involved in 9/11'.

I agree with this.

Even if we don't say 'all Muslims' I think it's pretty dodgy to say 'Muslims are terrorists' or 'men are violent'.

They may be more violent than women as a group but most men are just normal guys with jobs and families. I feel like the hatred for men shown by a lot of self described 'feminists' is a large part of why it's become so unpopular, not women trying to be 'cool girls' or 'handmaidens' or whatever the reason given on here is. In most surveys on the matter the negative attitude towards men is mentioned as a key reason why women distance themselves and support 'equality' instead.

This doesn't stack up. The percentage of men who commit violence is far, far greater than the percentage of muslims.

Also, if you look at the UK, far more people have been killed and injured by white, Christian terrorists than my Muslim terrorists.

However (and recognising it's not the whole picture) almost al terrorists are men.

The two statements are incomparable. Men, as a class, are violent. Muslims, as a class, are not.

So, on the other thread people were arguing that 'men' aren't violent? Because most men don't rape and murder?

MyNigel doesn't, obviously, but I have no idea about your Nigel, so I'm not hanging around him.

What about dogs? Can we say 'dogs bite'? Obviously most dogs don't, but we still supervise them around children.

Rotund this always interests me.

At what percentage would you be willing to say that most men are not after all good guys?

People on these threads often say that the vast majority of men are fine, not rapists or sexual offenders or violent, but they don't put any numbers around this.

Clearly if 51% of men were shown to be statistically 'violent' you couldn't honestly say 'most men are normal men with jobs and families' or rather you'd be forced to acknowledge that normal means violent for men but what percentage do you think are violent, rapists, potential rapists?

There is evidence on this, I'm just interested whether you are aware of just how many men are within this 'abnormal' *bucket you're happy to define

What's a NAMALT is like like an MAMIL?

This isn’t a debate. This is a contest as to who can say the most bigoted thing about men or Muslims to try and prove which is “most violent”

I’ve reported the entire thread.

Almost all terrorists are men. True.

Almost all men are terrorists. False.

There is a difference and it does matter.

Not All Men Are Like That also see NotMyNigel

But most men are violent, which is the point.

Are they? What percentage of men are violent?

If it's proven that most men are violent then it's perfectly accurate to say 'most men are violent'.

Based on lived experience, a majority of men are violent semi-regularly. You'd struggle to get an exact stat, because people will rarely admit to criminal acts.

If a significant majority of men are violent, then we are entitled to say 'men as a class are violent' or 'men are generally violent'.

I don't see anything controversial about this. Male violence is a huge problem.

"... But most men are violent, which is the point."

Are they? Does 'most' actually mean 'the majority', which might be 51%..?

Most men??

Yes, most men. Most get into a fight at some point in their life. Far too many commit sexual assault, which is a form of violence. Most women report being sexually assaulted various times in their life.

most men are violent.

This is not my lived experience. Even in school the majority of boys in my year group did not fight or commit other acts of violence that I was aware of.

Who is in your 'lived experience' sample pool?

Of course 'far too many commit sexual violence' but that is not supporting evidence for your statement of 'most'.

That's your lived experience, not mine or anyone else's.

Not a single man in my family or friendship circle is violent. And no, you don't get to dismiss that with a NMN, because if you consider your lived experience valid, then so is mine.

If you're going to say that most men are violent you need to come up with the stats to prove it.

That doesn't tally with my lived experience, which is presumably as valid as yours?

I agree IF a significant majority of men are violent then it's fine to say that, but I'm not sure that they are.

That tiny percentage of men that do engage in violent behaviour must be very, very busy. And be able to shape shift, to teleport and to travel across time and space.

I don't think any of these three statements support the conclusion that most men are violent.

I'm not sure most men do get into fights, but even if they did, some of the men will be victims of those fights, the fightee not the fighter if you will. Not everyone involved in a fight is equally culpable.

Of course far too many commit sexual assaults but 'far too many' doesn't equal 'most' or 'a majority'.

Lots of women experience sexual assaults, but again that doesn't support the idea that the majority of men are committing these sexual assaults. Most sex offenders offend multiple times, many of them hundreds of times. It's likely that these offenses are being commited by a sizeable minority rather than the majority/most men.

I think there are a range of percentages between 'tiny' and 51%.