If you want to debate, rather than derail another, very important thread, come here.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I want to get all the shit off the Leah thread. If you want to debate NAMALT and similar, please do it here.

I think an unacceptably large percentage of men are violent. But that does not mean it is 'most' i.e. the majority.

The phrase '1 in 4 women will suffer domestic violence' is what I remember from UK messaging. WHO says 1 in 3 globally. That is still a minority despite being so unacceptably common.

I'll admit I'm just going by what I see in day to day life, which is most men not being violently inclined.

I'd have to do some proper googling to provide reliable statistics but when they've done studies in European countries it's seemingly a small percentage of 'persistent reoffenders'.

For example, I read a Swedish study a while back which found that 1% of the population were responsible for 63% of all violent crime.

There have been several heated discussions on here in the past year with some interesting statistics which appeared to contradict common beliefs about violence demographics.

Will try and do some digging as there were some pretty big data dumps of studies from the last 25 years.

OK, found the thread. Apologies for massive cut and paste but it's an interesting read.

Argh, think it's too big to paste. Just keeps freezing the webpage.

Link to the thread?

The 1975 U.S. National Family Violence Survey carried out by Murray A. Straus and Richard J. Gelles on a nationally representative sample of 2,146 "intact families". The survey found 11.6% of women and 12% of men had experienced some kind of intimate partner violence in the last twelve months, also 4.6% of men and 3.8% of women had experienced "severe" intimate partner violence.

Since 1975, numerous other empirical studies have found evidence of gender symmetry in intimate partner violence. For example, in the United States, the National Comorbidity Study of 1990-1992 found 18.4% of men and 17.4% of women had experienced minor intimate partner violence, and 5.5% of men and 6.5% of women had experienced severe intimate partner violence.[48][49]

In England and Wales, the 1995 "Home Office Research Study 191" found that in the twelve months prior to the survey, 4.2% of both men and woman between the ages of 16 and 59 had been assaulted by an intimate.[50]

The Canadian General Social Survey of 2000 found that from 1994 to 1999, 4% of men and 4% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship in which they were still involved, 22% of men and 28% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship which had now ended, and 7% of men and 8% of women had experienced intimate partner violence across all relationships, past and present.[35]

The 2005 Canadian General Social Survey, looking at the years 1999–2004 found similar data; 4% of men and 3% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship in which they were still involved, 16% of men and 21% of women had experienced intimate partner violence in a relationship which had now ended, and 6% of men and 7% of women had experienced intimate partner violence across all relationships, past and present.[36]

The 1975 National Family Violence Survey found that 27.7% of intimate partner violence cases were perpetrated by men alone, 22.7% by women alone and 49.5% were bidirectional. In order to counteract claims that the reporting data was skewed, female-only surveys were conducted, asking females to self-report, resulting in almost identical data.[52]

The 1985 National Family Violence Survey found 25.9% of IPV cases perpetrated by men alone, 25.5% by women alone, and 48.6% were bidirectional.[53]

A study conducted in 2007 by Daniel J. Whitaker, Tadesse Haileyesus, Monica Swahn, and Linda S. Saltzman, of 11,370 heterosexual U.S. adults aged 18 to 28 found that 24% of all relationships had some violence. Of those relationships, 49.7% of them had reciprocal violence. In relationships without reciprocal violence, women committed 70% of all violence.

In 1997, Philip W. Cook conducted a study of 55,000 members of the United States Armed Forces, finding bidirectionality in 60-64% of intimate partner violence cases, as reported by both men and women.[55]

The 2001 National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health found that 49.7% of intimate partner violence cases were reciprocal and 50.3% were non-reciprocal. When data provided by men only was analyzed, 46.9% of cases were reported as reciprocal and 53.1% as non-reciprocal. When data provided by women only was analyzed, 51.3% of cases were reported as reciprocal and 49.7% as non-reciprocal. The overall data showed 70.7% of non-reciprocal intimate partner violence cases were perpetrated by women only (74.9% when reported by men; 67.7% when reported by women) and 29.3% were perpetrated by men only (25.1% when reported by men; 32.3% when reported by women).[56]

The 2006 thirty-two nation International Dating Violence Study "revealed an overwhelming body of evidence that bidirectional violence is the predominant pattern of perpetration; and this ... indicates that the etiology of ipv is mostly parallel for men and women". The survey found for "any physical violence", a rate of 31.2%, of which 68.6% was bidirectional, 9.9% was perpetrated by men only, and 21.4% by women only. For severe assault, a rate of 10.8% was found, of which 54.8% was bidirectional, 15.7% perpetrated by men only, and 29.4% by women only.[57]

In 2000, John Archer conducted a meta-analysis of eighty-two IPV studies. He found that "women were slightly more likely than men to use one or more acts of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently. Men were more likely to inflict an injury, and overall, 62% of those injured by a partner were women."[58] By contrast, the U.S. Department of Justice finds that women make up 84% of spouse abuse victims and 86% of victims of abuse by a boyfriend or girlfriend.[59]

From 2010 to 2012, scholars of domestic violence from the U.S., Canada and the U.K. assembled The Partner Abuse State of Knowledge, a research database covering 1700 peer-reviewed studies, the largest of its kind. Among its findings:[63]"

More women (23%) than men (19.3%) have been assaulted at least once in their lifetime.

Rates of female-perpetrated violence are higher than male-perpetrated (28.3% vs. 21.6%).

Male and female IPV are perpetrated from similar motives.

From 2010 to 2012, scholars of domestic violence from the U.S., Canada and the U.K. assembled The Partner Abuse State of Knowledge, a research database covering 1700 peer-reviewed studies, the largest of its kind. Among its findings:[63]"

• More women (23%) than men (19.3%) have been assaulted at least once in their lifetime.

• Rates of female-perpetrated violence are higher than male-perpetrated (28.3% vs. 21.6%).

• Male and female IPV are perpetrated from similar motives.

• Studies comparing men and women in the power/control motive have mixed results overall.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men#:~:text=The%20theory%20that%20women%20perpetrate,Straus%20and%20Richard%20J.

Got there in the end!

I'm quite surprised that none of these have been discussed much on here, even if some are quite old.

The last one was only ten years ago and the biggest if its kind with it comprising a meta review of no less than 1700 peer reviewed studies.

The cynical part of me reflects this could be because it contradicts our common cultural beliefs. Also, because it's nearly always women discussing DV so men are less likely to challenge statistics.

That said, I still believe men are much more violent overall. It just seems that with DV it's a lot closer than most people think. Possibly even the 40% of victims being male which is always denied on here.

I speculate that this reflects men mainly fighting with other men for dominance, the vast majority of overall victims of violence being men, and the fact that it's generally much more taboo to hit women (reflected in all the social experiments where people rush to help women victims but laugh and film men being beaten up).

Ok thanks I'll have a Google. Not heard much about it before.

Thanks @RotundBeagle for putting those posts together. Looks like it took some doing.

That's interesting, @RotundBeagle

It raises some really interesting questions.

I wonder whether women underplay the violence against them, as it's so pervasive? And whether some men consider a woman to be abusive if she refuses to comply with what they want? The emotional equivalent of the dressing gown of doom and man flu.

I wonder whether women are less inhibited about violence against their partners because they are unlikely to be able to do any damage. I have for example shoved a boyfriend that was in my face. He shoved me back and I almost fell to the ground. (We were young and stupid).

If a man is sexually assaulting a woman, she may well slap his face. The man may not see the equivalence between his groping her, and her violent response.

The reality is that men kill women, and terrorise women, at a rate far higher than women target men.

So somewhere there's a mismatch
between those statistics and crime.

It is interesting.

I think outcome of the violent action is definitely part of the gap between those statistics and crime statistics/what we see on the news.

I haven't read into any of those studies so I don't know how data was collected/what they considered violence. If any aggressive action was counted then a woman pushing a man and a man punching a woman in the face may both have been counted as one violent action, but clearly not comparable in terms of outcome.

Also, in the violence that was reciprocal/bi-directional it's important to know who initiated it. A physical act of aggression in self defence is not the same as initially lashing out.

Domestic violence in emergency medicine patients
''The UK Department of Health estimates that women on average experience 35 episodes of domestic violence before seeking help. It is not possible from the literature to identify whether male victims of domestic violence are purely victims or abusers whom have been assaulted back by their victims.''

''An Australian study indicated that 15.5% of men attending an emergency department had experienced domestic violence at some point in their life, about half that of women in the same study''
(Roberts GL, O’Toole BI, Raphael B, et al. Prevalence study of domestic violence victims in an emergency department. Ann Emerg Med1996;27:747–53)
emj.bmj.com/content/21/1/9

''Jackson Katz. is a social researcher who has done this specific exercise with groups of people many times. He asks both men and women what they do daily to prevent themselves from being sexually assaulted.
He describes the reaction of the men: “At first there is a kind of awkward silence as the men try to figure out if they’ve been asked a trick question. The silence gives way to a smattering of nervous laughter. Occasionally, a young a guy will raise his hand and say, ‘I stay out of prison.’ This is typically followed by another moment of laughter, before someone finally raises his hand and soberly states, ‘Nothing. I don’t think about it.'”

And then, when it is the women's turn to answer, they have A LOT more to say.
“As the men sit in stunned silence, the women recount safety precautions they take as part of their daily routine”
thestir.cafemom.com/healthy_living/215107/things-women-do-to-protect-themselves

No, it was an attempt to keep this 'debate' off the thread about Leah. To stop the derailing people ruining what was a thread to remember someone killed by a violent man. Report away.

I'd like to take the credit but I just cut and pasted the whole lot from another thread tbh. I've seen that data posted a few times on here, usually in a gotcha fashion but nonetheless it's an interesting read. Did have to do it in chunks though as kept freezing the webpage when I tried to paste the whole lot for some reason.

What strikes me as interesting is the large discrepancy between police/government data and the results from doing large scale social surveys. Like, it says somewhere in the above that something like 85% of victims are female in the crime bureau data, yet when you look at social studies covering many thousands of families the rates of offending are much closer.

I'm guessing this discrepancy is down to the official data only including officially filed crimes as opposed to people saying "yes, I've been assaulted" but maybe not having reported it. If that makes sense.

I think outcome of the violent action is definitely part of the gap between those statistics and crime statistics/what we see on the news.

I agree with this.

Two people can punch somebody with all their strength but if one is Mike Tyson then the results will be very different. Morally, they may be equal if it was a crime of passion and in the moment they both intended maximum harm and weren't taking into account their individual strength, but of course the outcome is usually factored in during sentencing.

Like the current case with that woman who shouted at the cyclist and caused her to veer into the road. Had she just shouted and the cyclist carried on past it wouldn't even have gone to court.

“Men hating women” is an idea that posters like to imagine. Hate is such a strong word. If I have ever met a man that hated women, they’ve been thoughtful enough to keep their prejudices to themselves.

I think "most terrorists are human" is probably the safest way to go. Dont want the Misandrists claiming we've oppressed female terrorists which is why the field lacks gender equality. There are bad people and good people and shades of grey, they can be black, white, Christian, Muslim, men or women or any other variable I saw a good. I think these threads are a classic example of what Mark Twain was talking about when he asked us to consider "who shook the jar"

Most if not all men are misogynist. How can they not be when they grow up in a society that tells them they come first and women are lesser beings? People think this can’t be true because they think misogyny has to mean actively hating women, calling them names etc. it doesn’t.

misogyny is a man thinking his career automatically takes precedence when kids come along and expecting his female partner to sacrifice her career progression because his job “doesn’t work like that”.

misogyny is the pervasive idea that women with “too many” sexual partners are tainted, and men thinking they have a right to know their partner’s sexual history and judge them for it

Misogyny is lads banter whatsapp groups, casual exchanges of sexually explicit photos and videos between men

misogyny is men who can’t even discuss anything to do with women’s rights without going “but women do that too!” or feeling victimised by someone stating domestic abusers are in the majority, male

misogyny is the men going to the pub and leaving their female relatives to cook and wrangle children on special occasions like Christmas and birthdays

misogyny is why rape and sexual assault convictions are so low

these are just a few examples that exist in everyday life. Whether misogyny tips over into violence or sexual assault somewhat depends on the individual man - but I also believe that many sex offenders (I’m talking about adult men assaulting adult women specifically here) don’t even think they’re committing a crime. It doesn’t have to be violent in the sense of being pinned down or ambushed in the dark - it could be repeated persuasion, assumption of consent because it was previously given, not reading obvious signs of discomfort in their partner, etc.

every man has the propensity towards all of this because society teaches them it’s ok. Some men just make the effort to make themselves more aware of their privilege and toxic, sexist societal messaging, but those ones really are in the minority.

I cant say society has ever taught me that, and I dont think any of those things And i thankfully dont know many guys that do.

Thankfully Misogyny has an actual definition which is "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women"

Several of your examples are not "misogyny" at all, but could be adequately described as being inconsiderate. Maybe look up "misandry" of which your post is an example. 😂

Afaic Most men have attitudes that directly clash with feminism especially in their younger years although some will mature with age/having daughters of theor own. This ranges from non criminal acts like talking over women, belittling them, gaslighting them, frightening them, favouring other men over then to criminal acts such as intimidating women, threatening them, as well as the usual rape murder and general abuse. I think men in certain cultures are more embracing of treating women like shit because (a) its legal and therefore normal for them to act this way and (b) it benefits them. I think race/religion is a red herring almost, if a young white western boy was raised in typical Afghanistan upbringing, he'd have the same typical abhorrent views of women as the the native Afghanistan. Race has nowt to do with it. I am prejudice against certain cultures. If I'm culturist then so be it.

@Will87 which of those things do you not think are mysogny?

"Misogyny is lads banter whatsapp groups, casual exchanges of sexually explicit photos and videos between men" doesnt demonstrate dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women, its just being inconsiderate.

"misogyny is men who can’t even discuss anything to do with women’s rights without going “but women do that too!” or feeling victimised by someone stating domestic abusers are in the majority, male" doesnt demonstrate dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women its just being overly sensitive or defensive.

"misogyny is the men going to the pub and leaving their female relatives to cook and wrangle children on special occasions like Christmas and birthdays" again, doesnt demonstrate dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.

The fact you interpret general human flaws as being misogynistic does however demonstrate a prejudice "opinion that is not based on reason" against men.

men "banter" women "gossip" which is the same thing just with different names depending on the gender of the people doing it for example, i dont go around saying they are misadrists because they are all talking about how shit my so thinks I am in bed. If I called every woman that criticised me a Misadrist then there are a hell of a lot of them. 😂

I can give you real world examples for the others but im not here to berate myself or my SO.

You do you, obviously, but I thought someone with such strong views about equality would like to know when they are the wrong side of a line, in this case the one between feminism and misandry.

Ask yourself why it is illegal for men to use locker room banter at work, or leave their female colleagues to do women's work. They are all examples of ''ingrained prejudice against women''.