Women not having children as not enough good men

[AdamRyan]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/11/why-a-shortage-of-mr-rights-means-single-mothers-hold-the-key-to-the-falling-birthrate

Interesting article about the falling birthright.

Yet the conclusion isn't "how to encourage men to become more suitable candidates for fatherhood"

It's "support single motherhood".

I'm really interested why the author picked that angle. I'd have thought making men less shit would be a better answer personally!

What hasn't caught up is socialising boys to expect that they can and should aspire to the same involvement in parenting their children and running their household as girls.

Until "women's work" is aspirational it's a hard sell.

This.

And also change the social attitude around divorce/single motherhood from "she didn't pick the right man" to "he wasn't a good husband"

Start asking men whether they can/should "have it all"?

Use it or lose it paternity leave for men

More punitive statutory child maintenance for men who barely see their kids, enforced through tax returns not paye

Antenatal classes about how to look after babies for men - and time off work to attend

More role models of men in traditionally "womens" roles in media/on TV etc

Aren't the happiest demographic for women the single ones?
And for men the married ones?

I think it's pretty new in history that women can be single and still provide for themselves financially and not have huge social stigma for being unmarried. I'm not surprised that many women are choosing this for themselves when so many men seem to bring so very little to the table.

And that's without the rise of rape culture, misogyny and Andrew TAte etc

Use it or lose it paternity leave for men

Currently men are entitled to a whopping two weeks of statutory paternity leave - a tiny fraction of women's entitlement. You think there's a major problem of deadbeat dads abusing such generous provision and spending it all down the pub - and scope to significantly change behaviour by cutting it?

Thelnebriati- There are a lot of men out there who are not relationship material and that is the main problem. Most bad men put on a kind act and women have no way of knowing it's an act. Not knowing which men are truly good and who isn't, and getting fooled many times is why many single women decide not to bother looking anymore and just focus on doing other things with their lives.

"Just choose better" is something men's righters like to say to deny how selfish and criminal much of the male population is...Even when men misbehave it's still the woman's fault when she gets mistreated-classic victim blaming.

Your bias has caused you to misunderstand me
I mean a significant period of paid paternity leave, separate to maternity leave unlike the current shared parental leave set up

It is well-documented now that there is a mismatch between the educational levels of men and women, with a higher proportion of graduates being female. A highly educated professional woman and a blue collar man may genuinely struggle to find sufficient compatibility for a successful long-term partnership in which to raise children. Mutually so. So evening out the proportions of male and female graduates could perhaps be one step forward.

And yet, when hardly any women were graduates couples managed to find compatibility just fine.

"Just choose better" is something men's righters like to say to deny how selfish and criminal much of the male population is...Even when men misbehave it's still the woman's fault when she gets mistreated-classic victim blaming.

What a load of tosh.
You can most certainly be a feminist AND say to women choose better. What an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. Women need to up their standards and take responsibility for themselves. It is not anti women nor pro men to feel this way.

By saying otherwise it's saying women by virtue of the fact that they are women can never do wrong or be accountable. If that's what feminism is you can count me out.

I'm not entirely sure (whilst a good thing) that women can easily "up their standards"

Socialisation from early girlhood, and the influences around girls can take an incredible knock to their self-esteem. Whilst good parenting can help address some of this the impact of school and wider society means constant comments and behaviours from boys and men and also from other girls and women, impacts girls' self worth. Hence the reason some may not make positive choices.

As another poster said its not easy for women to identify behaviour at the outset. Using something topical, even a clearly intelligent, successful woman such as Emma Pattison was unable to realise the sheer horror that her husband would go on to murder her and her daughter.

You are right it perhaps isn't an easy thing to do; there are many reasons why people choose poor partners. However your example of Emma Pattison I think is most likely (ime) an exception not the rule. Most women and girls I know personally, who choose to be with men who are violent or abusive in other ways, have shown these traits almost immediately and before they became pregnant*.These women I know had reservations from the get go and consistently ignored their own instincts and advice from others. It is these types of women who I fail to feel much sympathy for and this doesn't make me a "victim blamer" or pro men rights.

*yes I know domestic violence can start in pregnancy.

This shows you have very little understanding about domestic abuse and is quite victim blaming.

Abusers often go for strong or successful women.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/strong-confident-people-end-up-in-abusive-relationships-2017-8%3famp

Here's more about why:

When it comes to romantic relationships, resilient people have this one thing in common. Quite often, they don’t discover that they’ve been enduring actual abuse until their psychological resources are nearly depleted, which takes a great deal longer than others without their strength. It’s not that they don’t see signs or fail to identify toxic behavior. They simply have a knack for working around problems, rising above them, and pushing through them for the sake of achieving their relationship goals.

weenacullins.medium.com/the-covert-narcissist-guide-1e46959a6bd1

You presented me with an article which basically summarises the book of one therapist who describes how some psychological abusers like the challenge of strong women.

It doesn't mean that I know little about domestic abuse and it doesn't mean I am a victim blamer.

The article doesn't demonstrate any of what I have said is untrue.

Surely their mother is their role model?

LOL. I flipped to the MN homepage after skimming this thread and this is currently active in AIBU

....to think men are, sorry, but AWFUL

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/4743196-to-think-men-are-sorry-but-awful

Saying that women aren't acting on red flags and staying in abusive relationships is victim blaming.

You don't know about DA as if you did you would know about the cycle of abuse, that abusers are charming and manipulative and deliberately present a different face to the world than at home.

If women say they are wary of men, then they are told NAMALT and called a man hater.

Face up to the fact that men need to step up to change things.

I highlighted the E.P case simply as it was an extreme, that said, it is not in many cases that women have any idea at the outset of the intentions of an abuser. Some are very skilled at hiding their less favourable traits.

I was not suggesting that you were victim blaming; being pro mens rights (again, not saying that you are, necessarily) is not necessarily a negative thing. As with rights also come responsibilities (as with women) which sort of comes full circle to your point of women making poor choices (as part of their responsibilities, I think we can agree?) I don't think that their poor choices can be entirely separated from my comments relating to female socialisation though.

The question being is why women ignore these early warnings and advice?

I think the truth is you have no idea who you are typing to here. I would argue that I do actually know about domestic abuse seeing as I lived it. Thanks.

Grew up with an alcoholic father where violence (of all types) was dished out to my mother and me and my siblings on a daily basis.
Lots of my friends as a child and adult has been involved in relationships with varying degrees of domestic abuse. Professionally I have worked with vulnerable women in violent relationships and in safeguarding.
I find often the people who shout the loudest about victim blaming and how women shouldn't be accountable at all for their choices are the people who haven't lived through domestic violence and have been privileged in that they never had personal experience in any capacity. All a bit academic really.

Now other than accessing articles via Google can you describe your experience and knowledge of domestic violence which makes you the authority on the matter? Thanks in advance

Hahaha OK then

Have you got unresolved feelings of anger from your mum staying in an abusive relationship? Why aren't you angry with your dad for being an abuser?

I'm not an authority on the matter, apart from having been in an abusive marriage for 15 years.

I have however had a lot of therapy and read a lot from people who are authorities.

What you've written about women ignoring red flags is just victim blaming nonsense and certainly not my own experience

@twinklystar23 absolutely.

I think that's a good question. The answer is complicated and I really don't have the energy to attempt to answer it right now!! 🙃

Hold on how come you have imagined I am not angry at my dad?
Right now I'm only angry at myself for engaging with you as I know there's no arguing with stupid

Re read your response to me a woman who has just disclosed a history of abuse and have a good long think about how you chose to respond.

Long slow clap to you.

Did u choose to have kids with this idiot then? Not your fault is it. There there. Feel better?

I don't care you married an abusive man. That's on you but I do think very little of women who choose to put their kids through it. Bet that's why you are defensive. Tell me I'm wrong. Poor children.

You can’t force yourself to fancy someone though. Nothing worse than settling

Obviously I didn't know he was an idiot.

Because abusive men are often clever. As you'd know if you were actually supporting abused women like you say.

Why did your mum choose to marry your dad? Why do you blame her more than him?

She married him because he had a lot of money lol and she came from poverty. She grew up in a family where domestic abuse was present also.

Why do u imagine I'm blaming my mother more than my father? You are wrongly assuming lots of things about me.

I don't blame my mother more than my father. I think they are both responsible and accountable for their own actions and inactions.

Your tone

Youv'e said women you work with ignore red flags at dating phase and therefore are abused later

You've said you feel sorry for my kids that I exposed them to an abusive relationship

You say your mum married your dad for money

Conspicuously you've said not a jot about the role of the abusive men in these posts

Victim blaming. And with either no knowledge or no empathy for abuse victims.

If I take your posts on face value, I'm assuming your background means it's easier for you to have no empathy and victim blame than to face up to the fact your mum was a victim as much as you, your dad was to blame and its all on him. Because that makes you feel powerless.

" Victim blaming"oh god give me strength

You are all for the concept of victim blaming no doubt because its easier for you to swallow this idea that you were a passive victim in all the bad that you've experienced in life than face the fact that YOU could of made different decisions. I get it. I get it I really do.

I think because I say things like women are responsible for themselves and not follow it up with and also men are responsible for themselves you made some really wild and inaccurate assumptions about me and my views or opinions.

For the record I literally hate men who are violent or abusive to women. I truly, truly hate them. But and this is where we probably differ, I hate women who hide behind the concept of victim and don't make any attempt to consider what part they part they played. The only victims in domestic violence who are truly passive and hold no responsibility are children.

I don't want to argue any more with you. You will no doubt not hear what I am trying to say. And I'm OK with that. All the best to you.