Women not having children as not enough good men

[AdamRyan]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/11/why-a-shortage-of-mr-rights-means-single-mothers-hold-the-key-to-the-falling-birthrate

Interesting article about the falling birthright.

Yet the conclusion isn't "how to encourage men to become more suitable candidates for fatherhood"

It's "support single motherhood".

I'm really interested why the author picked that angle. I'd have thought making men less shit would be a better answer personally!

This attitude you have is why people don't take feminism seriously.

These are the most boring comments.
Why are there so many comment around here saying this?
Do you really think you’re saying something new or profound?
Feminist have always received backlash, everyone knows this.

I have no doubt that some of the women on this thread are ace.
But the response from some of the posters show that these men would already be found wanting.

Lol.
So deeply sorry for boring you.

No. Wasn't thinking anything I was saying was new or profound. But then there's not one comment on this thread new or profound either. Including yours.

I'm intrigued as to what sort of 'support' would encourage women to actively choose to be single mothers. I've found raising one child tough, especially the early years; it turns out I cope very badly with broken sleep. DH is a very involved, hands on father (who does plenty of the grunt work). I doubt the proposed support includes night nannies, which is what we really needed. Having found it hard with an involved father, I can't imagine any support that would have made me consider being a single mother.

Incidentally, DH isn't particularly masculine or conventionally attractive. We knew each other for years before falling for each other. He's a great husband and father, but if we'd met through OLD, I doubt our relationship would have happened.

A lot of them don't. Which is why the birth rate is falling.

😘

😌

I think the article is proposing people become single mothers of multiples through choice through donors and clinics. I wonder if they're planning on making this free? Subsidising childcare so it's actually feasible for the average woman to have more than one child under the age of 5.

Anecdotally, I know a number of truly excellent women now in their late 30s/early 40s who have been strung along by men throughout their 30s who said they would "one day" be "ready" for kids (and usually marriage). They've then been abandoned, often for someone younger, by panicked men who apparently weren't ready to take on the responsibility of fatherhood. I think there is something askew. Perhaps all the messaging about women's biological clocks has convinced too many men that it's not their problem? I don't know what you do about it.

I don't have children. I never wanted any, but I always figured if I met a man who seemed like he would be a wonderful father, share domestic labour 50/50 and was keen on being a dad, I could be persuaded. Honestly, I can't think of anything more attractive than a responsible, mature, emotionally available man.
Instead I met a procession of men who were mostly interested in me being a mum - to them! So while this take clearly only tells part of the story, it does resonate a little with me.

I don’t think her conclusion is quite all there and it is only based on a tiny survey of 845 childless 42yr old women. In it, 19% of women and 23% of men said they had not met the right partner as to why they were still childless. (12% had no reason at all.) This doesn’t necessarily mean it is a cause of birth rates falling as we have always had men & women who were childless because they never found the right partner. Or say that….because there is still stigma associated with admitting you don’t want children. Many single people feel socially pressured to say: I would want children, if I met the right person. When they really are ambivalent about children.

The proven reasons behind the birth rates falling are:

• women have reproductive rights
• women being empowered to be financially independent

A low birth rate is actually a GOOD thing and will save the planet and the species in the long run. It’s why global population is projected to peak in a century or so, and then decline to a steady replacement level.

So I disagree that we need to fix anything, we don’t need to encourage women to have more babies imho.

Yet the conclusion isn't "how to encourage men to become more suitable candidates for fatherhood" It's "support single motherhood". I'm really interested why the author picked that angle. I'd have thought making men less shit would be a better answer personally!

I think the author picked that angle because if we assume that 19% women responding “haven’t met the right partner” means it’s because of shit men, then we must similarly conclude that 23% of men responding “haven’t met the right partner” means it’s because of shit women.

And then conclude there are 4% more shit women than shit men in the dating pool.

So the author isn’t going to link not meeting mr right with men being shit, not only because it’s lazy and unscientific, but because if you decide to express that opinion, then the flip side must be true and that would mean more women are shit than men. (Which obviously cannot be true).

This is the table within the survey linked in the article
link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-44667-7_3/tables/3

Instead I met a procession of men who were mostly interested in me being a mum - to them!

This seems to be so many men!
Why do grown men want mom 2.0?

Only women have babies onna
So assuming you want to increase the birth rate, 19% of women not finding "the right partner" has a bigger impact than 23% of men.

Having a baby is usually and should be by mutual consent of both partners though. So I disagree that women not finding the right partner has any more of an impact than men not finding the right partner.

I don’t think finding the right partner has any statistically significant impact on birth rate btw as we’ve always had men and women never finding the right partner. Correlation isn’t causation.

I'm always intrigued by the 'women are too picky, my cousin's neighbour's friend's dogwalker broke up with a man because she didn't like his shoelaces' argument. Unless the picky woman in question is your friend, constantly telling you about how sad she is to be single while a stream of mr-wonderfuls-if-not-for-their-shoelaces are kicked to the curb, why do you care? Why do you take it as a personal slight that they didn't want to pursue a relationship with a particular man?

And it can't be that all women are too picky and only want 6"5 bodybuilding hedge fund managers who rescue puppies in their spare time - just look at people like Mick Philpott, Fred West, Jeremy Kyle contestants - they all managed to find someone to shack up with. And of course, if a woman went along with a relationship with a man she didn't really feel it for but didn't want to be seen as picky, she'd no doubt be left picking up the pieces when the relationship inevitably breaks down however many years down the line.

@rellway I know attractive women with ridiculous 'must have' lists. Funnily enough no man ever matches up. I actually think some of my friends are commitment phobic and use their pickyness to push perfectly nice imperfect men away. That hasn't stopped some having kids.

Exactly, not meeting the right partner doesn’t stop men or women from having babies if it’s babies that they really really want. Most often, if they want a baby they will have tunnel vision, have the baby and then realise it’s the wrong partner.

But why do people like yourself seem to be almost insulted if someone isin’t in a relationship / doesn’t date just about anyone?
So what if someone is ’picky’? People should be.
What does it matter if someon is single?
Fo you believe everyone MUST date? Why?

@DoomedForLoneliness I'm not in the least offended if someone is single. And the right sort of pickyness is essential.

I feel that eg in my case my Ex has his ideal setup. He has 'done his duty' provided some kids grandkids got married etc and then wanting more freedom made it utterly impossible for me not to divorce him before the.DC were even in school. Now he has DC that love him, but he only has to give a couple of hundred pounds a month and bother about them for a weekend every two weeks (and this according to the world he is a great dad) and the rest of the time he can focus on what he wants to do whether that be work or who he wants to see, where he wants to go and not answerable to anyone. Sure he has someone else vaguely in tow...but it's not the same commitment and I think for him, this is as perfect as he would wish his life.

@DoomedForLoneliness its not offended. It’s more that a lot of women will have kids regardless of how shit the father is.

So you may as well help yourself by having kids with a good man who will be a present and equal parent that you have no spark with than a waster you have a spark with, if your gonna have kids regardless.

That way when you break up you’ll have had the kids you wanted and we’re determined to have anyway, the kids will benefit massively from an equally involved dad and you’ll benefit from sharing the parental load, finances and childcare.
Or you can have kids with the guy you have a spark with that shares little to no parental responsibility and pays minimum maintenance or non at all.

Then maybe the shit men will step up realising they can’t just impregnate women and walk away as they’re not being chosen to impregnate them. Or they won’t care that much either way. Probably the latter, which is why there’s no point entertaining them even if their is a ‘a spark’.

I wonder if she’s secretly hoping for a matriarchy?

She had an article last month where she made a (reasonable - not brilliant but not awful) argument that Andrew Tate and the new misogyny is a last gasp of chauvinism, not a reason to put the breaks on the feminist movement or reassess demands for better treatment.

To join the conversation on how could we do it? I don’t think it’s that hard. There are several ways we could make single motherhood much easier.

• Higher child benefit (that doesn’t get cut off at 50k), especially in the early years so that single parents who don’t have an involved father or other help can afford a babysitter and go out from time to time.
• Maternity pay that matches your paycheck (though possibly not for 12 months, as time out of the workplace, long term, is hard to backfill)
• Subsidised high quality childcare that’s accessible.
• Guaranteed wrap around care at primary school.
• A complete overhaul of child maintenance aimed at making sure parents doing the actual care get the money they need when they need it. (Which, in part, means not going with the mother being the main carer while there are childcare needs that impact career development and ability to socialize and come with higher required expenditures for a paltry amount of maintenance then letting the father take over when those costs no longer exist.)
• Family courts that didn’t require resident parents to jump through hoops for a parent who isn’t consistent or is neglectful or abusive;
• Better enforcement of laws barring maternity discrimination and an extension of the law to cover women with older children as well
• Good access to mental health care
• Better support for children with disabilities, especially respite care.
• A political class that lauds single mothers instead of despising them.

Single mothers tend to suffer (along with their children) because of issues around money, including the reduced ability to develop a career, and mental health care. If, as a society, we supported single mothers with money and access to the mental health support they need and didn’t spend our time telling them how bad at parenting they are, we’d probably find that they were as good as current two parent families.

I’m not pushing this - just pointing out that it isn’t that hard to think of ways single mothers could be supported that would likely make a world of difference to them.

33% of working age men have a criminal record.

How would you support single mothers better? As a single parent (not what I intended) it is brutal. I can't see what measures you can put in to make it easier really as most of the difficulty would only be avoidable by having another parental figure around or not having children

Goverment pays child maintenance to resident parent then collects it like tax from NRP.
If the NRP loses job etc then resident parent still gets a basic rate maintenance and nrp accrues debt to government.
The only problems I have faced as a lone parent are financial. This would go some way to ensuring no child goes without paternal support.