Feminism: chat
Do men have an innate sense of importance?
Icecreamistoocold · 23/01/2023 18:59
Am having a hard time negotiating the work/ childcare balance with my DH. After the birth of our second child I went back to work full time and he was the stay at home parent. This choice was made because I earned more and he genuinely wanted to be a SAHP. I had done it with our first and discovered that I liked work better. Ideally we would have both worked part time but couldn’t find 2 part time roles that paid well and worked together.
DH did a great job as a SAHP, he did the housework, cooked and did all the baby group’s etc. It wasn’t perfect but it worked for us.
Fast forward ten years and DH is back at work. He started with part time work but has recently started his own business. It’s going well and he is in demand (although pay is not high). At the moment we can’t afford for me to go PT and I am still the higher earner.
The problem is that now DH works he is rubbish at supporting family life. He has slacked on house work and child care. I have pushed back and in the end we have worked out a schedule so we are both pulling our weight. I am happy to do my share but was annoyed that because he started working more it’s fine for him to drop domestic responsibilities!
I have also noticed that he expects his work to take precedence if we have a conflict. This has taken me by surprise as he always acts like his work is more important. I feel like there is something within men that makes them feel superior. It’s like his contribution is always more important no matter the circumstances. It’s very strange to notice. I keep having to push back and remind him that we both work so there needs to be constant negotiation.
I am starting to believe that men believe they are naturally superior and more important than women. My DH would deny this if asked but I don’t think he is even aware of it. I guess it’s male privilege?
MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 23/01/2023 19:01
I don't think it's innate, it's social conditioning/nurture.
XanaduKira · 23/01/2023 19:02
Sorry but it's just your DH - my DH isn't like that at all. Don't stand for it.
Icecreamistoocold · 23/01/2023 19:04
Yes maybe @XanaduKira I guess I am just surprised as he took on the role of SAHP so well. I thought he would be more aware of having to still balance home/work when he went back to work?
Thesonglastslonger · 23/01/2023 19:07
Oh let’s be honest…
Yes most men think they’re cleverer and better than women. It’s very annoying. I think it’s probably a side effect of being bigger and stronger, they don’t bother noticing the stuff women are better at. When they learn history at school it’s all about what men did cos mostly no one bothered to write down what women did. Etc.
WeWereInParis · 23/01/2023 19:13
If he was a SAHP for 10 years it doesn't sound like he thinks his work is more important though. Maybe he thinks it's his "turn" to focus on work more after staying home while you worked?
I'm not saying he's right because of course all decisions like that (becoming a SAHP, going back to work etc) should be done on what's best for the family not one person's career - I'm just speculating on how he might feel.
Icecreamistoocold · 23/01/2023 19:37
Yes @Thesonglastslonger thats how I feel. I think men think the contributions they make in any sphere of life is more important.
greenspaces4peace · 23/01/2023 19:41
jordan peterson suggests that women have more self doubt which might be hormonally driven and a throwback to needing to protect our children. the lack of confidence coincides with puberty.
Icecreamistoocold · 23/01/2023 19:43
@DillDanding yes that could be the case. However I think in most couples the woman works less and earns less. They are also probably more willing to take on the bulk of domestic duties or just always have. Now that we are both working by DH acts like his work is automatically more important than mine (or that’s how it seems to me).
Icecreamistoocold · 23/01/2023 19:51
yes @WeWereInParis that makes sense but I don’t think it’s like that. I like DH as he is truly someone who doesn’t worry about what people think. He loved going to baby groups when most men I knew always seemed to be awkward in those situations. He was never embarrassed about being a SAHP and was proud of spending so much time with the children.
It was initially fine when he went back to work part time it’s the setting up his own business which is hard. He is doing something very specialised. I am very proud of him but don’t feel that his important work makes mine less important.
Icecreamistoocold · 23/01/2023 19:53
@greenspaces4peace i have definitely been socialised to put other people before myself. I find it hard that DH isn’t shy about always pushing for the option that makes life easier for him.
gravyriceandchips · 23/01/2023 20:02
My dh is a star.
He does his fair share, he and I are equally culpable for cleaning and shopping etc. does his own ironing and mine if I ask.
But this whole gender thing he doesn't get. Because he already does all this and expects every other man to also. Any man who doesn't pull his weight or puts women down he says is a dick.
He hates it when I am on my soapbox because he doesn't see it as a sex or gender issue. He just sees it as the partner being a dick.
Trying to explain to someone who is already on board with equality is difficult because to him that is the basic level of a relationship
napody · 23/01/2023 20:14
greenspaces4peace · 23/01/2023 19:41
jordan peterson suggests that women have more self doubt which might be hormonally driven and a throwback to needing to protect our children. the lack of confidence coincides with puberty.
That sounds like absolute bollocks.
He certainly has very low levels of self doubt though.
pondsprite1 · 24/01/2023 01:36
Studies consistently show that men are more likely to be narcissists than women. Men have a more narcissistic culture than women overall imo.
It's not just your DH (if that's how he is). My father and brother are the same way. They're actually both very overtly sexist and think a woman's place is in the home but that it's ok if women work sometimes.
A lot of people still think men are the natural bread winners and should be paid more than women, while women's careers are the ones to go on hold if kids enter the picture. He might be a good guy but still influenced to think that way a bit.
MademoiselleTrunchbull · 24/01/2023 01:49
Well, I don't think it helps tbh that a lot of women want to 'marry up' despite being in favour of equal pay as a concept. Many will vehemently deny this (a bit like the thread on here where everybody swore blind they'd happily date a binman) but studies show that SAHD and men who earn less than their partners are much more likely to be divorced.
It tells men that they need to be 'better' than us in some ways in order to be more eligible.
Namenic · 24/01/2023 01:52
I dunno, I guess it’s hard to know exactly without knowing the chores split. BUT I can understand if he wants to put more energy into work after years out of the workplace in order to re-establish himself. I say that as someone who has taken 3 Mat leaves - and was keen to do well at work after. I would expect the other partner to support a sahp returning to work (by initially doing more then 50% of domestic load - but with a view to it equalising in the long term when they had settled back in). But I can understand OP frustration if he is not pulling his weight (even after allowances made, time to adjust etc).
teezletangler · 24/01/2023 02:06
What do you actually mean regarding him slacking? What percentage of the household responsibilities is he currently taking on?
CantAskAnyoneElse · 24/01/2023 07:09
MademoiselleTrunchbull · 24/01/2023 01:49
Well, I don't think it helps tbh that a lot of women want to 'marry up' despite being in favour of equal pay as a concept. Many will vehemently deny this (a bit like the thread on here where everybody swore blind they'd happily date a binman) but studies show that SAHD and men who earn less than their partners are much more likely to be divorced.
It tells men that they need to be 'better' than us in some ways in order to be more eligible.
Read the aibu thread from yesterday.
It was full of women who made more / their friends and family members where women make more money.
They were fighting for their lives in that comment section.
Icecreamistoocold · 24/01/2023 07:15
@teezletangler when he was aSAHP he did the majority but I still chipped in. I was very careful as the working parent to still pull my weight. I was very aware that being at home with a toddler and baby all day is not always fun!
His journey back to work has been gradual. He is now working almost full time and as it’s his own business it’s pretty intense. Initially he seemed to drop all the housework. I was then spending my weekends catching up. I am not scared to feedback and made it clear that I wasn’t willing to carry on that way. He needs to learn to juggle work and housework better! We now have set tasks each which keeps it pretty even. For example he changes the bed and does the washing. I clean the bathroom and kitchen. We share school runs. I would say I do more housework than him but I am more particular so don’t mind taking on a bit more (but definitely don’t want to do everything)!
This is all a lot of boring detail that made me think about male importance. Having been a pretty enlightened man I was shocked at his willingness just to leave all housewives to me because he is working now. It’s like something inside him thought he was above that now. Or it could be that he is adjusting being back at work and struggling to juggle!
Also when we have a work/ child care clash he assumes his work will take precedence. I have to fight my corner and remind him that I work as well. To be clear he’s not a monster. When I pull him up on this stuff we work it out together. For example with the work clash I asked him to sort out childcare and he did.
I just think deep down he thinks he is more important than me so makes assumptions about my willingness to make way for his important work. Despite the fact that I still work more hours and earn more.
To be clear despite the fact that I work more I am not a high earner. I work in the voluntary sector. We both come from pretty hippyish families and though are more conventional earning loads of money has never been our priority. We have always tried to prioritise family life and spend time together. If eventually he did earn more than me I would happily work less. We have always tried to look at the big picture of what is best for the family rather than have automatic roles.
cosmiccosmos · 24/01/2023 07:28
Whilst of course NAMALT, I'm afraid I think the majority are. It starts young - the whole boys need rough and tumble, look how strong they are, boys being boys etc. They see their mothers doing the bulk of the housework/wife work and their fathers out cycling/doing hobbies. Movies portray men being strong and in charge. Drip drip drip. My experience is that when push comes to shove men put themselves and their interests first.
I KNOW this is a generalisation but I'm afraid it's what I see irl, what I see on MN and what I see in the media. Unfortunately, and the worst thing, many women still seem to put their men/boys first too.
MiaMoor · 24/01/2023 07:37
greenspaces4peace · 23/01/2023 19:41
jordan peterson suggests that women have more self doubt which might be hormonally driven and a throwback to needing to protect our children. the lack of confidence coincides with puberty.
Lack of confidence coincides with puberty?
Hmm. Also, funnily enough, coincides with men starting to treat girls like objects and ogling at them. But ok, puberty, whatever JP.
OP my ex is like this. I was SAHP out of necessity - one of us had to do it, he was happier in his job than I was so i opted to do it. He then opted out of everything. Whilst there are posters saying not their Nigel, there is definitely a pattern of women taking on the mental load whether they work or not, and generally having fewer hours of leisure.
In your case I would add up the hours he’s doing, add up yours, make sure the balance of housework is divided to reflect that. Crises with children should be equally dealt with, particularly if you’re both working.
flabbygoldfish · 24/01/2023 07:41
Many of have this sense of entitlement and superiority. I work in a male dominated industry and do a fairly male dominated sport. And yes, male entitlement is insidious throughout.
it is not everyone but it can just sneak in even from the ones you least expect.
Boomboom22 · 24/01/2023 07:47
Testosterone is linked to confidence and competition. Oestrogen is linked to caring. It's not insane just because jp spins it negatively, confidence building and empowerment is literally the basis of most women in management courses etc. Whether women acting more like men in order to succeed is the way forward or whether men should change is the more pertinent question.
Roseelane · 24/01/2023 08:03
I think it's lifelong social conditioning rather than innate.
Icecreamistoocold · 24/01/2023 08:22
@Roseelane I am starting to think it’s innate. When he was a SAHP we didn’t have these battles. Now he is in a more traditional male role he needs reminding that he can’t opt out of domestic duties.
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