Do men have an innate sense of importance?

[Icecreamistoocold]

Am having a hard time negotiating the work/ childcare balance with my DH. After the birth of our second child I went back to work full time and he was the stay at home parent. This choice was made because I earned more and he genuinely wanted to be a SAHP. I had done it with our first and discovered that I liked work better. Ideally we would have both worked part time but couldn’t find 2 part time roles that paid well and worked together.

DH did a great job as a SAHP, he did the housework, cooked and did all the baby group’s etc. It wasn’t perfect but it worked for us.

Fast forward ten years and DH is back at work. He started with part time work but has recently started his own business. It’s going well and he is in demand (although pay is not high). At the moment we can’t afford for me to go PT and I am still the higher earner.

The problem is that now DH works he is rubbish at supporting family life. He has slacked on house work and child care. I have pushed back and in the end we have worked out a schedule so we are both pulling our weight. I am happy to do my share but was annoyed that because he started working more it’s fine for him to drop domestic responsibilities!

I have also noticed that he expects his work to take precedence if we have a conflict. This has taken me by surprise as he always acts like his work is more important. I feel like there is something within men that makes them feel superior. It’s like his contribution is always more important no matter the circumstances. It’s very strange to notice. I keep having to push back and remind him that we both work so there needs to be constant negotiation.

I am starting to believe that men believe they are naturally superior and more important than women. My DH would deny this if asked but I don’t think he is even aware of it. I guess it’s male privilege?

[FinallyHere]

women are naturally more willing to compromise as men prioritise themselves

I think this becomes true when women become parents. They 'get it' that the the DC need to be prioritised.

Having never had DC, I can be 'as selfish as a man' because I can look after myself and let him look after himself. Once there are DC in the mix, they would be the ones who would suffer so I wouldn't be able to stand in that point of principle. No idea why some men continue to just sort themselves out while leaving their wives sort out the DC.

My suspicion is ' because they can', the woman will always 'blink first' when their are DC involved.

[MademoiselleTrunchbull]

I think a lot of women's priorities change when they have kids and many aren't quite so worried about chasing the career - especially if hubby's salary more than provides for the family.

I saw this with my sister's friends. Many were quite ambitious and had good office jobs. Upon having children their priorities just seemed to change. Fast forward a few years and the kids are at school and many haven't gone back to full time work. Of those that work, most aren't really worried about climbing the career ladder like they were ten years previous.

On paper it looks like the archetypal 'woman gives up salary to facilitate man's career', but in reality the money goes into a shared account and she benefits as much as her husband, if not more as she has a few extra days off every week and doesn't have the pressure of being the primary earner.

Of course, there are situations where the man is financially abusive/controlling or tries to leave her penniless after splitting up but these are not the norm by any stretch IME.

[deydododatdodontdeydo]

Agree with the last two posters. Why do men leave child care and house keeping to the woman? Because they can. It's sort of acceptable within our society.
Why do women care less about their career after having kids? Because they can, it's acceptable within our society (assuming it's affordable).

[Andsoforth]

I don’t think it’s particularly helpful to think about men as a class, when the problem is a particular man.

It’s much more powerful to ask
“do you think your work is automatically more important than mine?”
rather than
”do men think their work is more important than women’s?”

I’m not saying this to pick apart what you’re saying, and by all means vent and discuss it here. But don’t take your eye off the ball.

You only have to sort out one man’s attitude, not take on a hundred thousand years of socialisation . You can exhaust yourself if you take too wide a view.

[LolaSmiles]

There's a strong dose of socialisation I think rather than it being innate, but in one of your updates you said he's now working almost full time and I wouldn't expect someone working almost full time to be doing much more than the person working full time. I would expect them to be doing a fair share though and not leave things to their partner.

[MrsSkylerWhite]

I think anyone starting a business has to make that the priority, initially at least. Male or female.

[Beamur]

The personal experience is often part of a bigger structure though.
So it's perfectly reasonable to ask, is it just me? Or just my husband? If the answer is yes, then it's just a 'you' problem. But if the answer is no, this is a more widespread and experienced phenomenon, then chances rise that it is structural.
I think women (in a heterosexual family set up) are often the primary care giver for children and work fewer paid hours or work in lower paid jobs.
Why?
Is it just because they want to or is there more to it than that. Are they defaulting to that role because they saw their Mum do it? (Arguably socialisation) Reinforced by play as a child that centered around home making role play? Or because job opportunities which fit around school hours tends to be more limited? Why is that? Is it because someone at some time has decided that the way to do this job is ,9-5 in a certain place. Why? (And so on).
If you keep digging you often see that the things you are putting down to choice, often have very little choice on offer and are as a result of a structural system that in many cases has been designed and executed by men, for men. Many things don't change because they work ok. Many of these systems weren't designed to keep women out, they do so by not recognising the different needs of each group. Such as childcare responsibilities.
But we are all different people - but it is useful to look and see if it's personal or structural.
I can criticise the patriarchy without disliking men.

[ComfortablyDazed]

Absolutely correct @Beamur .

Individual men behave like this because it’s part of a wider societal structure.

[Icecreamistoocold]

@LolaSmiles yes all I want is a fair share. He has been a lot better recently and is pulling his weight. He went back to work pt a while ago. It’s the business set up and recent increase in work that really started to impact things. It’s been a big adjustment for both of us. My saving grace is that I am not worried about speaking up. I am not interested in being a martyr waiting for him to notice.

[bluebeardswife7]

Penis portions does not just mean food. Men want penis portions of life too. It they are stay at home father, they are king of the school gate. If they have a job, it is considerably more important than your job. Thousands of years of social conditioning with a side order of testosterone.

[bluebeardswife7]

So basically, yes.

[Tarquina]

@ComfortablyDazed

No, it’s not innate.

It’s a constant drip-drip of socialisation that begins as soon as young people (children) start to become aware of the world around them.

Something happens that’s ostensibly ‘good’ but actually undermines women’s position, while reinforcing men’s ‘superiority’.

I have a tween and a young teen, and I’ve been noticing this for a while.

For example, in 2016 - ‘USA on the verge of electing first female president!’

Again in 2016, ‘Theresa May is Britain’s second PM!’

Pride in my home country that we were the first country to give women the vote.

Etc. Etc….

These are all good things. But every time I hear/read one of these ‘good news’ stories, I worry about what my DS is hearing and taking away about that.

It’s 2023, and the USA has never had a woman president? Why? Are they not up to the job? What’s wrong with women, that they can’t get the gig?

The UK has only had 2 female PMs, compared with XXX male ones? Why? Again, are women that incompetent?

Women got the vote much later than men? Why? They’re clearly not as good as men.

I am literally touching the absolute tip of the iceberg here. But this sort of thing is so widespread.

Men are constantly told/shown they rule they world. The women who manage to rise to the top, are the exceptions that prove the rule - which is: women aren’t up to the job. And when the self-styled ‘leader of the free world’ (AKA the USA) hasn’t even managed it at all, there’s obviously something really sub-standard about women. And then they’re ousted due to unrelenting misogynistic attacks (see: Jacinda Adern).

This is the drip-drip message that young people get.

And then the ‘Matthew Effect’ (the rich get richer and the poor get poorer) kicks in, and men coast along on their own self-importance, while women are constantly relegated to second best.

The UK was not the first country to give women the vote.

[MsRosley]

@MademoiselleTrunchbull

Well, I don't think it helps tbh that a lot of women want to 'marry up' despite being in favour of equal pay as a concept. Many will vehemently deny this (a bit like the thread on here where everybody swore blind they'd happily date a binman) but studies show that SAHD and men who earn less than their partners are much more likely to be divorced.

It tells men that they need to be 'better' than us in some ways in order to be more eligible.

I suspect that's because most women know they will have periods where they are relatively dependent on their partner due to child-rearing. Sadly even working mothers often fall behind in terms of pay/promotion because of the bulk parenting responsibilities so often fall to them. Having a high earner to fall back on makes sense.

[MsRosley]

I've been grappling with this mentally a lot recently, OP. Yes, men clearly have an innate sense of importance/entitlement, but I've been pondering why. I think misogyny is so ingrained into society that it's like the water we all swim in - we're barely aware of it most of the time. But at the same time I do wonder if men are also hard-wired to be selfish.

[happyshineyperson]

To me it’s more surprising that anyone could be surprised by this. From birth, men are constantly told by society that they are more important. Most characters in books, TV and films are male. “He” is the default for any person or animal of unknown sex. Most politicians, bosses and other leaders are male. Men dominate sport. Men earn more money than women. History tells the stories of men, not women. If that was the message you were being given day in day out by the world around you, wouldn’t you think you were more important than non-men* too?

*obviously using this term for effect!

[BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn]

@Tarquina

The UK was not the first country to give women the vote.

ComfortablyDazed said her home country was the first. She didn't say she was British.

[Squeaky2023]

Just an aside: I was on The Dull Womens' FB group yesterday, where, unfortunately, men are allowed.
There was thread about Denise Coates working full time as a billionaire and founder of the 365 Bet gambling business. It was a thread about money and working and I noticed that there were way more men than women arguing in favour and saying it was great, aside from the vile nature of this type of business.
They were very invested in the thread, much more so than women.
In response to the up thread "marrying up" comment about women: yes, I've seen this too many times on MN, with the woman living like a pauper on maternity leave or with small children while her husband controls and keeps all of "his" money while she suffers and can't understand where this aspect of the man she loved enough to have a baby with came from.
I thank fuck my DH is not like this, despite him out earning me no, at age 50, by more than x2.
Terrible idea to rely on a bloke this way.

[newnamethanks]

😂what makes you think that?😂

[InnerCityInnerCity]

I'm 50 and this has totally screwed my life up. Literally a life long battle at home, work and a niche hobby. I'm desperately hoping it will be different for my kids.
Some of the examples are big - getting a baby to London, leaving it with a work colleague whilst I went to a big interview, DH was at work in London but 'busy' he has no idea doing what now.
But most are small, really small but have eaten away at my soul.
If DH thought his schedule would be upset he'd argue passionately, suddenly leaving teens overnight alone was fine. My work place should accommodate me on Friday afternoon (they shut at 1pm).
My favourite was during the toddler years when apparently leaving sharp knife handles casually in grabbing distance was fine cos he couldn't be arsed to tidy up his sandwich making stuff. This established his lack of basic care for small children which meant it could only be me doing the bulk of care.

i was a pretty niche expert in my 20s, as soon as we had kids I was left holding them whilst DH spent his leisure time improving his skills. 20 years on, he still won't ask me anything, he'd rather work it out from first principles.

DH was supposed to be one of the good ones back in 1994, but my life could have been so much different. I suspect one of my daughters will be single, childless and free the other will go the opposite.

[YankSplaining]

I think it’s important to realize that men don’t have a monolithic experience of how they grow up. My husband didn’t “learn from an early age that he was important.” He learned from an early age that it was his job to be a “good kid” so he wouldn’t create more stress for his mother, who had to deal with his alcoholic dad. I have to poke and prod him to advocate for himself at work. He gets given all these extra responsibilities and assignments, but then he won’t ask for a raise even though any semi-reasonable boss would see that he deserves one.