A woman dies in childbirth. Is she the surviving birthing partner or the surviving non birthing partner

[FannyCann]

Discussion re shared parental leave when a new mother dies in childbirth. Darren Henry seems at best confused, at worst doesn't seem to understand the legal status of mothers.

https://twitter.com/darrenghenry/status/1587791546585333763?s=61&t=YY_Bc3-ipYs7eO3Y2ymVvlw

Mmm, I see your point and obviously that's an implication one would want to avoid. Maybe 'the bereaved parent' would be better? Again, that wouldn't make any implications about gender/identity, but it'd be clear who was who.

I think that's very likely where it's come from, yes. And also agree about legal guardian/carer in the phrasing.

I never said I was confused (although I don’t think it was particularly clear). And I said I agreed with his point, but that his language is a shame.

I think you know exactly why he didn’t refer to the women giving birth as the mother, and whatever point someone is making, women are entitled to ask to be referred to respectfully - and “birthing partner” in place of mother is not respectful

Oh my goodness this is appalling.

The poor women has died and we have to listen all this PC b@llocks?

I despair, I really do.

If you’re a lesbian couple and one of you is giving birth / has given birth it genuinely is a bit confusing and a bit annoying if the word mother gets used in place of person / parent / one giving birth. Because you’re both mothers!!

We had loads of instances of doctors / midwives / registrars / health care visitors saying things like - and how is mum then? Or so which of you is mum then? Even had to fill out a few forms that said things like mother and father on them.

I agree. I really don't see what is disrespectful about saying 'birthing partner' in the context of actual childbirth. Sure, if your child is nine and the GP is still saying 'Well hello, Sam's birthingparent, and how is Sam's asthma today?' perhaps there is an issue. But if you're trying to distinguish between the parent who has given birth and the one who didn't, really, birthing kinda comes into it in an important way.

(Am also a lesbian parent and agree it can be confusing - in our case, actively medically dangerous, as you never knew when to say 'yes, I'm the mum' or 'no, you are talking about my DP who gave birth'. We had instances of both examples where DD and/or DP received worse care because medics didn't understand who was who. In the event, god forbid, that DP had died giving birth - and she did have a pretty scary experience - I would definitely, definitely want it recognised that what she did (birthing our daughter) was categorically and critically different from what I did. We're both 'mother' but you cannot compare our two experiences of DD's birth.)

@FannyCann firstly some good news for what is a sad case, the Shared Parental Leave Regulations 2014 use Mother throughout. The legislation also refers to father but also partner with the definition of same sex, Civil Partnership etc.

Thankfully, the legislation was obviously written before the transgender debate had gained any traction.

As the law currently stands mothers must have the first two weeks after the birth as maternity leave and pay. After that date they can opt to give up some or all of their SML and SMP for SShPL and SShPP. For some reason the SPL legislation does not permit it to transfer to the father if the mother dies - that must be a gap in the legislation that should be quite easy to fix. Good on the MP for raising it.

Personally I understand the language used but get why it irritates, my opinion as someone who writes HR policy is mother and partner which covers same sex relationships, Civil Partnerships, Marriage and unmarried heterosexual relationships,

You think it is good news that a man who has just lost his partner isn't able to take leave to look after their baby? I can't see any good news in this story, that poor baby no mother and what is father supposed to do? Give up his job and go on benefits, put a baby of 2 weeks into childcare when his paternity leave is up?

Yes great news.

sorry posted to early.

mother and partner are the most sensible terms to use as they cover all scenarios. Thankfully the HoL managed to persuade the HoC to use mother in recent legislation. Additionally a judge ruled a birth certificate must state the mothers name as the name of the person who gave birth. So a transman who gives birth has to be mother on a birth certificate.

Slowly but surely the legislation is sorting/clarifying key points in the transgender debate.

You have deliberately misinterpreted what I said. I acknowledged that this was a sad case.

The OP has been upset by the erasure of the word mother, so advising her that the legislation uses the word mother should be good news to her. I also pointed out that this was undoubtedly an oversight in the legislation that was fairly easy to correct.

“Birthing Partner” used to refer to the person with the woman giving birth. It’s only recently that there has been a (forced) attempt to change the meaning.

God even that wasn’t clear - I meant the person accompanying the woman giving birth

I think most people still think the "birthing partner" is the person supporting the woman giving birth @ancientgran
I haven't heard it used as a euphemism for the woman giving birth before. Birthing person is the more common current euphemism.
I think the MP was trying so hard to be woke he lost himself, which is a shame as it detracted from the very important issue that the partner of a woman who died in childbirth should be entitled to adequate leave to care for the baby.

Yes it did.

Women who give birth to their children - whether or not they survive childbirth - are those children's mothers.

This dehumanising language needs to stop. People who pretend this isn't an issue are part of the problem.

A woman died in childbirth. The father of that baby is not entitled to take the maternity leave she should have had. That is a scandal. If her partner had been a woman, the child's other parent.

We don't need to use different language. What I've written is clear. Obfuscation of the facts does no one any favours.

Very sad and awful for the father to deal with.

I took it that the terminology used was intended to be inclusive of lesbian relationships where you can't mention fathers.

You are minimising the tragedy to score points about the use of the word mother. What a triumph.

If it is so easy to correct the oversight has it been done? Is this man getting the leave he needs to care for his baby?

No, it's about detaching the word woman from childbirth.

@ancientgran the MP has unintentionally minimised the tragedy by using unclear language and very new terminology that many people don’t understand.

@FannyCann started this thread specifically about the language used which is not that set out in legislation. Had the MP used mother and father/ partner it would have made what has happened clearer for everyone and emphasised the tragedy and the gap in the legislation.

One of the benefits of Mumsnet is that any user can set up a thread looking at an issue from different perspectives. This thread is about the use of clear language I would have a different response had the OP started a thread about the gap in the legislation.

Yes, I believe the word mother, particularly in legislation, is important and is worth defending. I do not want to live in a world where the person who carries and gives birth to a child becomes a gestator. How would you feel being called a surviving birthing parent having just lost your husband/partner rather than mother or widow.

you can look at it from any perspective you like but starting a post with Good News when the only good news about this case would be this baby having the opportunity to be looked after by a loving parent who wants to spend this time with her is really crass.

Point scoring about language when a baby's welfare is at stake is pretty low.

Who is talking about Good News @ancientgran?

Language is important. I guess it must be to you too or you would have called yourself ancientbirthingparent'sbirthingparent

PrincessGlittery said, " firstly some good" in her post at 11.31.

I might be ancientgranddad or grandma or ancient granddukeferdinand for all you know and it isn't for you to tell me what to call myself.

I am not trying to tell you what to call yourself.

I am a mother. Not a birthing partner. And you don't get to define language for women.

In a lesbian relationship both parents are mothers yes. But that doesn't alter the fact that if the birth mother dies (whether in childbirth or otherwise), she is survived by the other parent, be that a mother, father or other. Therefore the word parent is entirely clear and covers all partners without giving offence. Use of the word bereaved rather than surviving may be preferred.

As PP have said, if this discussion had been framed using clear language then it wouldn't be derailed by the confusion caused.
And yes of course, the bereaved parent should have their entitlement to parental leave reset so they can take the full length of time that the birth parent would have been entitled to at birth.

The baby didn't die.

@ancientgran selective extract there!

@Clymene what I actually said was @FannyCann firstly some good news for what is a sad case.

I could have worded it differently and I have already stated wouldn’t have used that language on a thread talking about the situation but this was a thread about the importance of language.

What ever @ancientgran thinks it is positive for women that the legislation uses Mother for the person who gives birth. When the NHS has stripped the word woman from its website when defining sex based medical conditions e.g. menopause, ovarian cancer, cervical cancer etc,. any legislation that uses correct sex based language is good news . If the SPL legislation was being drafted today it is very likely they would use birthing parent not mother, the erosion of female sex based words needs to be halted.

To be clear the actual situation is very sad, mothers should not die during childbirth but sadly it happens. Yes the legislation should allow a bereaved husband and father to claim SPL and I expect in due course the legislation will change, in part because the cost implication ( something else @ancientgran will undoubtedly criticise me for) are minimal as the numbers are very small.

Note: I don’t think the cost should be a factor but I know any case to make a change will include an estimate of the cost of funding the extra SShPP as so will be a factor in the decision making process no matter how distasteful that might be.