A woman dies in childbirth. Is she the surviving birthing partner or the surviving non birthing partner

[FannyCann]

Discussion re shared parental leave when a new mother dies in childbirth. Darren Henry seems at best confused, at worst doesn't seem to understand the legal status of mothers.

https://twitter.com/darrenghenry/status/1587791546585333763?s=61&t=YY_Bc3-ipYs7eO3Y2ymVvlw

Yes I don't see what the problem was if he misspoke or not

What he meant by that is that if the father had tragically died (obviously not in the process of giving birth) then the mother can automatically take full maternity leave whereas a father can’t take a full year off even if the mother is no longer alive so can’t take her protected 6 (I think it is) weeks.

Yes this

But I think he means if both parents survive- so surviving birthing and non-birthing partner their parental leave is disparate.

But one parent will always survive!

In normal circumstances of two parents the mother needs maternity leave to recover from the birth and enable her to breastfeed. Since she is dead it seems reasonable that the father should have enhanced paternity leave. If he would talk in normal English everyone would understand what he's talking about.

I always understood the term “birthing partner” to be someone who is present to support the mother when she gives birth. I’ve usually seen “birthing parent” when people want to use neutral language in relation to just about the most female thing in existence

anyway his point is totally valid but it’s a shame he didn’t refer to the woman who died as a mother. It will quite literally never be someone male who die giving birth, however they identify and it’s offensive to sever the process of giving birth from the sex of the woman doing so.

If the non birthing partner got hit by a bus the birthing partner would still get maternity leave.

If the partner who gave birth gets hit by a bus the non birthing partner won't.

Why is surviving parent not sufficient?

Ugh I hate it when they reduce women to body parts it's so offensive "people with vaginas" makes me baulk to heat and become angry that as a woman

But as to the tweets - I haven't heard his speech if it's confusing- but he is absolutely right when the mother dies in childbirth , 100% right the surviving other parent be it Dad or second mother or whatever should be entitled to parental leave same as Mat Leave. That newborn baby needs his or her surviving parent to care for them now has no Mother. How sexist and unreasonable the legislation is that it cannot do that in this situation - Pat Leave or paid parental leave in these circumstances are wholly appropriate.

So this thread isn't about the sad fact that the parent who is alive isn't allowed parental leave? It's about a faux confused attitude towards the words birthing partner. I guess he might have used that terminology because it would the same problem if a lesbian couple had a baby. So non birthing partner covers both sexes.

*If the non birthing partner got hit by a bus the birthing partner would still get maternity leave.

If the partner who gave birth gets hit by a bus the non birthing partner won't.*

Then this has more to do with compassionate leave than maternity/paternity leave. No doubt occasionally, tragically, non birthing partners die for whatever reason in the first year of the child's life - the mother might already have gone back to work and I'm not sure you can suddenly announce you are back in maternity leave. When a woman dies in childbirth the father/partner of the woman clearly needs some entitlement to leave. I don't know why there wouldn't be - adoptive parents are entitled to a year, I think they can share it between them. And neither of them are non birthing partners.

All this does is highlight the need for clarity in language because I started this thread confused and it has only got more confusing!

What a confusing way of discussing something quite important.

As far as I can see, this situation has arisen because the current model of "shared parental leave" isn't really shared leave. It requires the mother to give up her maternity leave and pass over the time to her partner to take. Rather than the maternity leave for the mother being protected and guaranteed regardless of what leave the partner would like to take.

In this case, the mother obviously was not taking any maternity leave, so not able to transfer it to her partner. There clearly needs to be a change in the rules to allow the maternity leave to be passed on to the partner in the case of maternal death in childbirth or during mat leave.

Yes I think that is the important bit however we refer to the parents.

Ok but why couldn’t he refer to the woman giving birth as the mother? It would have made it a lot less confusing and be less offensive to a great deal of women (I acknowledge lots of women don’t care about this language, as you just surely acknowledge a lot of women care deeply about it)

I agree
That's a newborn baby here that needs his or her parent
That poor Dad he must be beside himself I hope he gets what she would have been entitled to bc she can't have it and he's grieving his partner aa well as being sole parent

Not faux confused at all. Just takes a while to work out the linguistic gymnastics.
Back to my question - what's wrong with surviving parent? Covers male, female, trans .....

If they change the rules to so a father can take the leave if the mother has died then it would leave a loophole where a same sex couple could face the same issue this father faces. So I think he is trying to be clear. I think most of us understand what he is getting at and think they just need to let this poor man have the leave with his child.

The surviving parent could be the parent who has given birth and then there wouldn't be a problem.

Yes I think that is the important bit however we refer to the parents.
That's important too

I loathe this renaming of women without our permission . It's like everyone else gets to decide how they are referred to and somehow we don't!
Mother
Father
Parent
Bereaved parent , sole living parent
Parent who gave birth

I don't know but those seem so much simpler and accurate and can be made sensitive to people in situations identifying as different genders can use by how they choose to be called .

Rest of us are happy with our usual terms and want our identities left alone.

I can't know why he chose it, but ultimately it's a non-defining term to present the problem that is faced by both men and women. And, honestly, it wasn't confusing. You weren't confused. You just don't like the terminology.
I understand why women might not like it in certain circumstances, but why take pot shots at an MP doing his best to rectify a problem which seems very unfair to a parent and detrimental to a baby.

'If one parent has died in childbirth, the surviving parent ought to get leave to care for the child.'

No issue here, and inclusive language that makes no assumptions about what configurations of couples/identities you're talking about. There is no possibility that the 'surviving parent' could simultaneously have given birth and died in childbirth, is there?

(Yes, ok, I accept that in theory, two lesbians could go into labour simultaneously. But in that situation, I'm not even sure they could both be recognised as parents of each other's biological child, since HEFA does not allow lesbian couples to do fertility treatment at the same time.)

Well it is confusing to listen to him @MarshaMelrose
He referenced the woman who died and his constituent, the bereaved father. Then he started talking about surviving birthing partners and surviving non birthing partners. Which appears to be a reference to rules for parental leave in normal circumstances where the mother doesn't die in childbirth and is able to take maternity leave in the normal way and possibly choose shared parental leave with her partner.

All of which has little to do with the circumstances of a bereaved parent. Where the proposal by @RoseslnTheHospital would seem a reasonable proposal.

In this case, the mother obviously was not taking any maternity leave, so not able to transfer it to her partner. There clearly needs to be a change in the rules to allow the maternity leave to be passed on to the partner in the case of maternal death in childbirth or during mat leave.

'If one parent has died in childbirth, the surviving parent ought to get leave to care for the child.

I think it's pretty insulting to refer to a parent (usually a man but sometimes a lesbian partner) as a surviving parent in the circumstances of maternal death. Only the woman in childbirth risks her life. Sure my DH could have crashed the car and died on the way home after I gave birth Matthew Crawley style. But generally one expects the parent/father to be alive because their life was never at risk. It makes it sound as if childbirth is a risky business for both parents and Phew, how lucky one of them survived.
One of them is NEVER at risk of dying in childbirth.

I wonder if the usage of "surviving" parent has been influenced by the semi formal language used in obituaries, where people are described as being survived by their spouse etc?

Thinking about it, I wonder if there's a need to be able to pass maternity leave onto someone other than a partner/second parent? If the woman who dies is single and the father isn't around, it might be family members of the woman who take on the baby. So perhaps it should be "parent or legal guardian/carer".

It's a way of saying "the one that isn't dead"

Then it needs to be parental leave/adoptive leave/compassionate leave or some sort of special family circumstances leave.

Maternity leave is for mothers, it needs to be protected. At least on MP would like to see it abolished. This is why the language around maternity and motherhood is so important.