An idea regarding prostitution

[GCRich]

Go gentle, I've not thought a lot or researched this idea, it just popped into my head last night...

Make paying for sex a criminal matter with unlimited fines for johns... UNLESS they are on the "Johns Register". If you want to use a prostitute without being at risk of prosecution you need to be listed on a public register of Johns. Name, town, age, photo and evidence of the results of an STI test conducted in the last 3 months.

One can debate the ethics of using prostitutes, but men who believe it is morally acceptable to do so should at least have the courage of their convictions and be open about it. They can't have it both ways and say it's fine but I have a problem with people knowing.

[TruthHertz]

I'm not convinced most men think it's fine. They just do it because it feels good and because they can. Same with people who use recreational drugs. They know it fuels human trafficking, exploitation, murder, etc, but nonetheless it's still easy to call their guy, get a gram, and have a great night with few repercussions.

Same with the guy who wants sex after a few drinks. Whether it's 'fine' or not isn't the question. It's whether he can do it and carry on with his life with zero comeback, which most times he can.

[quixote9]

I remember reading some research about this years ago. The common thread as to why for a majority of punters was dominance. It wasn't sex. Which makes sense, since if that's all it was, masturbating would be cheaper, faster, and likely better. It was the ego stroking of lording it over someone.

The Nordic model seems to work well and be more doable. Lists though 😁

[Catherine57]

I think that's quite a good idea. Much safer for the prostitutes anyway.

[GCRich]

@TruthHertz

I'm not convinced most men think it's fine. They just do it because it feels good and because they can. Same with people who use recreational drugs. They know it fuels human trafficking, exploitation, murder, etc, but nonetheless it's still easy to call their guy, get a gram, and have a great night with few repercussions.

Same with the guy who wants sex after a few drinks. Whether it's 'fine' or not isn't the question. It's whether he can do it and carry on with his life with zero comeback, which most times he can.

Sorry - the use of recreational drugs (which are most dangerous when they are actually used by very vulnerable people as self-medication, not recreation) is a given, the only question is whether the harms to society are minimized by decriminalisation or legalisation or not.

One might argue that the use of prosititutes is also a given. There will always be men wanting power or sex and there will always be women who need money. The question is how to minimise harm, and I think that making john's own their use of prostitutes publicly might be part of that.

That final sentence is the entire point. Public register is more likely to mean that there is a comeback, which means not using prostitutes or risking the massive fines that come with using one whilst not on the register.

[user1471504747]

There would be no way to police it and would just drive it further underground, probably risking the sex workers by making them even more scared to come forward if something happened to them.

[GCRich]

@user1471504747

There would be no way to police it and would just drive it further underground, probably risking the sex workers by making them even more scared to come forward if something happened to them.

I don't understand?

It doesn't need policing per se. Policing can carry on as it is now. The only difference is that if someone is found using a prostitute (perhaps they are arrested for assault after being reported by a victim who is a prostitute, or perhaps they happen to be there when a brothel is raided) there they are fined - say £5,000 if they not on the public John's register.

I'm not saying it would mean every single John signed up, but it would leave anyone who wasconsidering using a prostitue in the tricky position of deciding whether to out themselves publicly or risk a very large fine if they do happen to be caught as an unregistered John.

[user1471504747]

@GCRich

I don't understand?

It doesn't need policing per se. Policing can carry on as it is now. The only difference is that if someone is found using a prostitute (perhaps they are arrested for assault after being reported by a victim who is a prostitute, or perhaps they happen to be there when a brothel is raided) there they are fined - say £5,000 if they not on the public John's register.

I'm not saying it would mean every single John signed up, but it would leave anyone who wasconsidering using a prostitue in the tricky position of deciding whether to out themselves publicly or risk a very large fine if they do happen to be caught as an unregistered John.

But how are they going to find the johns using prostitutes without being on the register? And what incentive is there for prostitutes to stick to only seeing johns on the register?

I can’t imagine many men wanting to be on such a public register so by only seeing such men they would be significantly decreasing their customer pool

[ChagSameachDoreen]

Nope.

Abolish all prostitution. Kill it at the root. Basic wage for all women. Free social housing. Free drug rehabilitation. No woman should be in the position where she needs to sell her body.

[GCRich]

@user1471504747

But how are they going to find the johns using prostitutes without being on the register? And what incentive is there for prostitutes to stick to only seeing johns on the register?

I can’t imagine many men wanting to be on such a public register so by only seeing such men they would be significantly decreasing their customer pool

They could hire lots of extra police to find johns not on the register, but more realistically it would not be a law that is actively policed. Just any time they do come across a john in the course of their work they simply check if he's on the register or not, and if he's not that's a £5k fine.

There is no incentive for prositutes to only see johns on the register, other than registered johns are more likely to be more law-abiding than ones who are risking the £5k fine, maybe.

Obviously men don;t want to be on the register. Nor do they want a £5k fine. SO maybe this would put some men off using prostitutes, which is the basic aim of my idea.

[GCRich]

@ChagSameachDoreen

Nope.

Abolish all prostitution. Kill it at the root. Basic wage for all women. Free social housing. Free drug rehabilitation. No woman should be in the position where she needs to sell her body.

I have no problem with anything you say and I'm all for better ideas that do more damage to the sex industry. But in the meantime I can't see a downside in my idea.

[hhh333hhh]

@TruthHertz

Same with people who use recreational drugs. They know it fuels human trafficking, exploitation, murder, etc, but nonetheless it's still easy to call their guy, get a gram, and have a great night with few repercussions.

People who use recreational drugs know that the only reason why there is trafficking, exploitation and murder is because it is illegal. There is no reason why the growing and distribution of cocaine should be any more lethal than the growing and distribution of sugar.

If you really want to save people's lives then you should at least consider decriminalisation. The war against drugs can continue forever but it will never be won and people will continue to suffer. It's the same with prostitution.

[hhh333hhh]

@quixote9

I remember reading some research about this years ago. The common thread as to why for a majority of punters was dominance. It wasn't sex. Which makes sense, since if that's all it was, masturbating would be cheaper, faster, and likely better. It was the ego stroking of lording it over someone.

You think that masturbation is better than having sex with an attractive woman?

The Nordic model seems to work well and be more doable.

It is a myth that the Nordic model reduces demand. The official report into the effectiveness of the model in Northern Ireland says that there has been an increase in demand there. The model exists in the Irish Republic too. There is one official report and two unofficial reports and none of them say there has been a decrease in demand.

They say there has been a decrease in Sweden since the model was introduced there. They say there has been a drop from about 13% to about 8%. They don't tell you that this figure went back up to more than 10% in the next survey 3 years later. This figure is for the proportion of Swedish men who have paid for sex at some time in their life.

There is a more important figure for the proportion of Swedish men who were active sex buyers. In 1996 it was 1.3%, in 2008 (the next survey) it was 1.8%. The model was adopted by Sweden in 1999. We also have a figure for the proportion of Swedish women who have sold sex at some time in their lives. In 1996 it was 0.3%, in 2008 it was 1.1%. All of these figures came down eventually but that was probably because of the 2008 financial crisis, not the Nordic model. Read the study by Mujaj and Netscher. There was a decrease in demand in non Nordic model Denmark after 2008.

[Notashamed1]

Ok I’ve name changed for this because, well Mumsnet 🤣

So what about women who willing work in the sex industry? I worked, willingly, without coercion in the industry during my 20’s. I’m not ashamed of it, my DH and close friends are aware, it’s no secret.

Tie me to the pyre and set me alight but I enjoyed my time back then, I made a lot of money from it (tax paid) and it has set me up for the rest of my life and put me in a position where I can provide for my DH and DD for the rest of our lives.

I can’t sit here and say nobody in the sex industry is not exploited but if get off your moral high horse and actually speak to people in it you’ll find exploitation is very much the exception - as it is in all industry’s.

What you are suggesting would simply push the Industry underground. It’s a trade as old as time, it will always be there.

[GCRich]

@Notashamed1

Ok I’ve name changed for this because, well Mumsnet 🤣

So what about women who willing work in the sex industry? I worked, willingly, without coercion in the industry during my 20’s. I’m not ashamed of it, my DH and close friends are aware, it’s no secret.

Tie me to the pyre and set me alight but I enjoyed my time back then, I made a lot of money from it (tax paid) and it has set me up for the rest of my life and put me in a position where I can provide for my DH and DD for the rest of our lives.

I can’t sit here and say nobody in the sex industry is not exploited but if get off your moral high horse and actually speak to people in it you’ll find exploitation is very much the exception - as it is in all industry’s.

What you are suggesting would simply push the Industry underground. It’s a trade as old as time, it will always be there.

I am going to quite deliberately NOT comment on most of your post, but I hope others who know more than me can support your position or contradict it as they see fit.

My suggestion - as far as I can see - does NOTHING directly to or for prostitutes.

This is about discouraging demand by making it potentially very very expensive to use prostitutes unless you are willing to go on the public record as a user of prostitiutes. It seems to me that this policy might reduce demand, which would be a good thing. Some men would go on the list and potential partners could say "nah, I don't wanna date a John". Men who don't go on the list might end up giving a large donation to government coffers through their fine.

This is all about trying to reduce demand, and trying to get men to be honest. If they are not ashamed of using prostitutes then they'll be fine going ont he public list. If they are ashamed then maybe they should think twice and not go visiting brothels?

I don't know what is the best model for regulating prositution... but I am certain that simple criminalisation is a blunt tool that does no good, and no regulation is no good either - measures need to be put in place where possible to keep women safe.

This isn't some amazing all-encompassing idea to deal with a problem, just one, very cheap to implement idea that might do some good, IMHO.

[MargaritaPie]

@quixote9

I remember reading some research about this years ago. The common thread as to why for a majority of punters was dominance. It wasn't sex. Which makes sense, since if that's all it was, masturbating would be cheaper, faster, and likely better. It was the ego stroking of lording it over someone.

The Nordic model seems to work well and be more doable. Lists though 😁

Lots of evidence the Nordic Model increases violence and is not in the best interest of sex workers.

decrimnow.org.uk/open-letter-on-the-nordic-model/
(doesn't help trafficked victims, increases violence and danger, sexworkers are still criminalised for working together)

stopaids.org.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/STOPAIDS-factsheet-sex-work.pdf
(from a health perspective, such as showing criminalisation such as the Nordic Model spreads STDs. Condoms for example are used as evidence under the Nordic Model.)

www.pion-norge.no/aktuelt/more-than-10-sex-workers-have-been-killed-in-6-months/

www.swarmcollective.org/blog/2019/9/20/nordic-model-in-northern-ireland-a-total-failure-no-decrease-in-sex-work-but-increases-in-violence-and-stigma

In addition to increased violence, in Nordic-Model Sweden at least establishments are permitted to refuse entry to women who "look like prostitutes" (even if they aren't) and the courts will back them up. This is an example of how increased stigma can negatively impact women.
www.thelocal.se/20130912/50200/

[MargaritaPie]

@GCRich

Go gentle, I've not thought a lot or researched this idea, it just popped into my head last night...

Make paying for sex a criminal matter with unlimited fines for johns... UNLESS they are on the "Johns Register". If you want to use a prostitute without being at risk of prosecution you need to be listed on a public register of Johns. Name, town, age, photo and evidence of the results of an STI test conducted in the last 3 months.

One can debate the ethics of using prostitutes, but men who believe it is morally acceptable to do so should at least have the courage of their convictions and be open about it. They can't have it both ways and say it's fine but I have a problem with people knowing.

I wonder how much support this idea would have amongst women who work in the sex industry?

A report from the UN HIV and the Law Commission on the situation in Sweden reveals convicting clients is almost impossible (just 2 convictions in the first 2,000 arrests) as sexworkers are completely unwilling to testify against their clients.

hivlawcommission.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/FinalReport-RisksRightsHealth-EN.pdf page 38

[MargaritaPie]

Just to add, this year Belgium became the first European country to introduce decriminalisation for sexwork. It joins NZ and parts of Australia. This is the model advocated for by many human rights orgs, health orgs, anti-trafficking orgs and sexworker orgs

www.brusselstimes.com/211351/historic-reform-belgium-first-in-europe-to-officially-decriminalise-sex-work

The "Nordic Model" isn't the only model available. Decriminalisation is another, it has a lot of strong support and it's certainly worth discussing as well.

[EmmaH2022]

OP who keeps the list?

do men have to go to a place like a registry office? Do you think anyone would actually do this?

[Ijustreallywantacat]

Any model which involves prosecution of sex work itself puts sex workers at risk. Decriminalisation means they can work on their own terms, possibly with other women for safety and have protection from the police in case of violence, rape or harassment. Decriminalisation is advocated for by sex workers and those that work closely with them.

[Jalisco]

This would be amongst one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard, so I'm glad that you didn't put any thought into it. There's many, many reasons why, but there's one very simple one. Sex work is not illegal in Great Britain so how can you possibly criminalise clients of sex workers for engaging in a legal activity?

[TheWeeDonkey]

The thing you're failing to consider is that the sex buyers should always be invisible and unmentionable.

Look at any thread on here about prostitution, even if the subject is about sex buyers it always reverts back to talking about how much prostitutes women (and men) love their job and how benevolent their pimps and madams are.

There will never be any kind of questioning or exploration of sex buyers because then we're forced to see them as they really are and the truth it's built on a vast and lucrative industry that doesn't want you to see that.

[MargaritaPie]

"Look at any thread on here about prostitution, even if the subject is about sex buyers it always reverts back to talking about how much prostitutes women (and men) love their job and how benevolent their pimps and madams are."

I've seen many sexwork threads on here and I've seen this claim made many times, but little to no evidence of it.

Posters tend to be split into Nordic Model supporters (who seem to want to talk mainly about clients instead of the impact criminalisation could have on the sexworkers), and decriminalisation supporters who are posting evidence on how the Nordic Model fails sexworkers and increases violence.

[TruthHertz]

@hhh333hhh

@TruthHertz

Same with people who use recreational drugs. They know it fuels human trafficking, exploitation, murder, etc, but nonetheless it's still easy to call their guy, get a gram, and have a great night with few repercussions.

People who use recreational drugs know that the only reason why there is trafficking, exploitation and murder is because it is illegal. There is no reason why the growing and distribution of cocaine should be any more lethal than the growing and distribution of sugar.

If you really want to save people's lives then you should at least consider decriminalisation. The war against drugs can continue forever but it will never be won and people will continue to suffer. It's the same with prostitution.

I'm not disagreeing with this.

[TheLassWiADelicateAir]

@GCRich

Go gentle, I've not thought a lot or researched this idea, it just popped into my head last night...

Make paying for sex a criminal matter with unlimited fines for johns... UNLESS they are on the "Johns Register". If you want to use a prostitute without being at risk of prosecution you need to be listed on a public register of Johns. Name, town, age, photo and evidence of the results of an STI test conducted in the last 3 months.

One can debate the ethics of using prostitutes, but men who believe it is morally acceptable to do so should at least have the courage of their convictions and be open about it. They can't have it both ways and say it's fine but I have a problem with people knowing.

No. A big fat No from me. I can't actually be bothered going into more detail but short version- prostitution should never be normalised.

[TruthHertz]

Sorry - the use of recreational drugs (which are most dangerous when they are actually used by very vulnerable people as self-medication, not recreation) is a given, the only question is whether the harms to society are minimized by decriminalisation or legalisation or not.

There's already loads of evidence on this.

Regarding the prostitution idea, I think you're being a bit naive tbh. If you walk down the Hagley road in Birmingham late at night you'll quickly encounter a world miles away from lists and registers. The police just don't have the resources which is why community groups are trying to step in and help.