Male dominated workplaces and toxicity

It's very hard. I had a similar 'orderer around' and being in a workplace with lots of female staff and bosses, it was very easy to deal with. A quick, "Tim doesn't direct my work or your work Wendy" dealt with it. And Tim was spoken to. By his female boss's female boss.

Honestly I'd start looking around for a new job and have a frank exit interview. Let them know why they can't retain female staff.

I'd look for another job, one with a better mix of people. If you're a year in and you're writing this, imagine how you'll feel further on. It's not worth risking your mental health over.

It's sounds like you have a good workplace and the things you mention don't sound sexist at all. I'd be thankful.

I’m sorry @Adelishious I don’t agree with you at all.

Having worked in a male dominated workplace I don't necessarily agree that the issues you are experiencing are solely down to that. I think it is down to poor management of the situation. I have also worked with a female orderer who was allowed by female managers to continue the ordering. But then nipped in the bud by a male manager.

That being said, I would leave and find something else.

If I'd been sharp enough I'd have replied to the first comment "If you have to ask then yes it is inappropriate" and not laughed. It's little stuff like that that can contribute to an unpleasant workplace in the long run.

Your second point, it could just have been clumsy phrasing, not meant to be a criticism of you. It could even have been meant as a positive for you, that your junior colleague is doing well reflects well on you. If the appraisal went well otherwise then I wouldn't dwell on it unless you get any further comments.

I would push back against your bossy colleague and use a phrase similar to MrsTerryPratchett about him not directing your work each time he tries. If you felt like it you could keep a record of how many times you have to do that, and then if it doesn't stop you could discuss it with your line manager. It's always easier to discuss if you have specifics to go on.

Also, ignore Adelishious, they are our current resident "anti-feminist" poster....

I've left all the workplaces like that. Only hiring a lot of different people fixes it, but they never do that and blame the people who don't fit and inevitably leave, so then actively hire people like them because "it never works out when they hire women". They end up taking the same sort of clients because the clients pick up on it too.

In my experience it can be very difficult indeed to thrive in a workplace if you are outnumbered by men, no matter how much you are drawn to the actual area of work.

You can find yourself completely ignored, subject to unwanted advances or both. It’s hard not to feel like an acid-loving plant that’s been thrust in an alkaline soil - and then blamed when your leaves start to droop.

I don’t know what the answer is but can certainly vouch for the profound detrimental effect this can have. There should be much more understanding of the significance of the social and cultural environment in which you are trying to work.

I think the first example that's provided gives off a vibe of a conversation amongst men in which ‘the wife’ features, someone who is built up as a pretend scary, monster person who is definitely not 'in the gang'. I’m not sure about the second example. It seems ambiguous.

@RoseslnTheHospital I certainly am not anti-feminist, I have very strong feminist values. Whether you agree with them or not has no bearing on my dedication to feminism. The only difference I see is that I see feminism as a way for women to succeed on their own merit without feeling the need to constantly drag others down and lay blame all around.

I worked for 20 years in IT/electronics. Very male dominated, but an absolutely fab place to work with very nice people. Don't know whether it was the field, or the strong HR dept, or both, but I think I was very lucky.

@TeenDivided I don't think it's luck at all, you're just obviously able to manage the social interactions that occur and enjoy it for what it is. If a workplace is male dominated then its naturally going to be filled with lots of men interacting with other men. I used to love working in the male dominated field I worked in. I loved the general male banter, sexual innuendos, bad language and the occasional sexist joke and could appreciate every second for what it was, which was men interacting with other men. I never felt that it should be changed in anyway just because I worked there and was female. They all accepted me 100%. Of course, they were crude and vulgar most days but I was married the whole time I worked there and never once did I feel that any of them acted inappropriately towards me. Any passes towards me were always in a jovial manner and boundaries were never overstepped, in fact they woukd always invite my husband too to any work nites out. I don't understand the kinds of people who believe that a workplace needs to change just to suit them. I think its got to be a sense of over importance of one's self.

I get what you mean OP, I have worked in a similar environment, thankfully only on a temporary contract, but it was incredibly draining and tbh the other staff just seemed incredibly immature and unable to function in mixed company. The receptionist used to have to tell them off when they were being particularly misogynistic. As I said luckily only 6 months of my 15 year career.

The other 5 companies I've worked in have all been full of normal men, maybe a few 'characters' who got a an eye roll from everyone, but there was no culture of being a knobhead.

So maybe a move would be a good idea!

I've worked in a few male dominated workplaces - in one I was the only woman - and I'm not sure that all of this is about that. But I would also say that workplaces that are very male or female dominated tend to have a certain character that means a person who is in the minority may feel that somewhat.

Some people really don't like that sense of feeling singled out, or what is even more common, like people notice their sex. Which is likely if you are the only woman, things like conversations may well change when you are around, just like them might when a line male joins a room full of female colleagues.

With regards to the guy ordering women around, it may well be sexism on his part but more than that, either he is a jerk or severely lacking in social understanding - in my experience there are bossy jerks everywhere.

Ultimately if you don't like a work environment where you feel conscious of yourself not being the same sex ans most others, I think a more balanced workplace might be better.

None of this is discrimination. They may well act differently and relate differently than you do because they are men, but it’s not for them to change what seems like perfectly innocent male beahviour simply to cater to you when as far as I can see they have done nothing wrong.
Imagine a male going into a female dominated workplace like nursing and demanding the character of it change because it wasn’t totally comfortably for him.

There’s a bit of a difference between men thinking they don’t quite fit socially into a female-dominated workplace, and women having to endure sexual harassment and aggression if they complain in any way, or being subjected to systematic sexism that says they and their work are valued less because they don’t have penis.

We’re back to: Men are afraid women will laugh at them: women are afraid men will kill them.

@ParsleySageRosemary

Yes but this is really just one woman thinking she doesn’t fit into a male dominated workplace. Unless you are being harassed or similar it’s wrong to think men should change the way they relate to each other to something more suitably feminine as to make her comfortable - just as it would be in the opposite.

Some seem to have an opinion that more typically female way of doing things equals right and more male equals wrong - but unless someone is being overtly hurt I can’t say I agree.

I can't see where OP has claimed this is discrimination?

In my expereince there are swathes of people who are inept at existing in mixed company. Funnelled from early childhood into single sex friendship groups, activities, and then ending up in male/female dominated courses and then industry.

Get enough together in one place and its going to make a toxic environment.

Is it possible to distinguish between the sort of locker room laddishness that you sometimes get in a male-dominated workplace, which is tolerable, I suppose, and the atmosphere created by the men LivingDeadGirlUK is talking about?

In the latter case there can be more of a sense of repression and awkwardness, resentment of women being around at all and a tendency to shun them as work partners but also to harass them at times.

But what if you hadn't enjoyed the banter, crudeness and occasional passes? Did you join in full heartedly and make sexual innuendos yourself? Did you also put up with racism and homophobia?

Would you have felt comfortable to speak out, or was there an element of going along with it to keep the peace, like a good compliant woman?

@MagpiePi

I think that is the whole point - they are happy with the workplace they have made, why should her being a woman give her the right to overrule that and “correct” then? It shouldn’t.
After all if it is so male dominated obviously she women aren’t actually needed there so why should the men be forced to change simply because the women want to adapt what they have made to fit women better?

We’re back to: Men are afraid women will laugh at them: women are afraid men will kill them.

Are we? I don't think OP is afraid her work colleagues will kill her.
That seems totally out of place here.
DH has told me that in his workplace (small company which is currently male dominated but wasn't in the past) there is literally no "boy's locker room talk".
I don't think all men are like that, so if your workplace is, a workplace move might be better.

I'm not entirely sure if your being serous here, but people being happy in their cliques and company productivity and viability are not the same thing.

In the construction industry the women are very much needed, there are not enough people of either sex entering the industry to sustain the rate of production now or forecast. This is something that has been highlighted at various construction summits and conferences for years now. Especially since Brexit as its an industry that has always had a high percentage of foreign labor. This is not just in the trades but also within the 'professional' areas of construction such as architects, engineers, project managers etc.

9/10 workplaces can manage an acceptable work environment and nip this kind of toxicity in the bud. The ones that can't should be called out and know its not acceptable. As already mentioned this is behavior that makes a lot of people uncomfortable not just women. Its the kind of environment that leads to stuff like the NG Baliey incidents www.building.co.uk/news/no-sackings-in-ng-bailey-internet-scandal/3091710.article.

Sure, there is a difference if we are talking about harassment and non-harassment.

But it's also quite common for men working in a female dominated workplace to have some discomfort with it. Women may talk about their husbands in a way that seems disparaging. They may be talking about something and then shut up when the male colleague comes in because they were talking about female issues. They may talk openly about female issues. They may socialize together in a way the man doesn't feel he can participate in. I've even seen women make sexual remarks that made a lone male worker feel uncomfortable which is not great, but it does happen.

In my current workplace we are female dominated which is typical in the sector, there is only one man working in the whole public element, and occasionally our patrons think he must be one of the tech guys because he is male.

People do often relate differently in single sex groupings - people point this out here all the time - and if you are the lone male or female in a workplace that can be something that you notice and for some people it can feel uncomfortable and they feel singled out.

But it's not systemic sexism and it doesn't mean people are being threatened with violence.

@LivingDeadGirlUK

Im completely serious. Somehow those “toxic” workplaces have always thrived from a business standpoint before hand yet strangely now they cannot do so? Or is it that some people who want places in said workplaces want them to change for their benifet so use the excuse of it being better for productivity?

Im not saying that what goes on in some male dominated workplaces is right - and I’m not saying it’s wrong. But obviously many virtually all male workplaces have existed quite successfully in the past so they clearly can be productive and viable, we just like to tell ourselves otherwise as an excuse to try to force them to change to suit our tastes.

I’m a manager and the only woman in a construction company. The men I work with are inclusive and respectful, never singling me out. However, the same is not said for visitors, suppliers, some sub contractors. Only yesterday I was asked if I was the ‘door opener’ on exiting the building! I am also seriously sexually harassed by one subbie, I have raised this with my boss who’s said he will sack him, but I’ve decided to shelve it for my own peace of mind.

We’re sadly in a very misogynistic country, but I find it’s much more the older generation as the younger men seem to get it!