Male dominated workplaces and toxicity

[Rororoooo]

Does anyone else struggle with the politics in similar environments or have any advice to add?

I work in one and have had a few annoying things happen recently.

• Went to a small internal event with all younger men (some of whom I consider work friends / acquaintances - we chat and grab lunch together occasionally, they’ll message me for chit chat) and one of them said when I arrived “would it be really offensive to say XYZ now Rororoooo has arrived?” And started sniggering. I rolled my eyes and laughed, asked what he meant by that. His response was that it “wasn’t about me”. But has given me a complex and I really hate the whole all boys / locker room talk.

• In a recent appraisal which went very well otherwise, I felt that my appraiser unnecessarily kept praising my own line report and how at ease he was in social situations, comfortable in himself, socially confident, how they got so lucky hiring him. I just felt a bit unfairly compared to a junior male colleague who has fit in like a glove because, yes, he is good socially but also he is joining a workplace of people exactly like him. I felt like the subtext was that I am not like that.

• Some women I work with mentioned that one of our male coworkers kept ordering them about when they started and that they had to have frank conversations about him not being their boss. I have found him very challenging too but haven’t admitted this. I find it depressing that he has never been challenged on his atttude towards junior female colleagues and instead we have to “put up with it”

There are many things I like A LOT about my work. But it’s hard to get past these and to feel like I’ll never fit in, I’ve been there about a year and I feel like a smooth start where I was happy and cheerful and confident then petered out and now I’m less confident and more nervous around them. I just want to be back to my normal happy self but I know I’m seen in a different way now

I think some women are more sensitive to 'male toxicity' than others. Obviously, if you look for it, you'll find it. Basic confirmation bias.

I do think the original poster would be more comfortable in a female majority workplace or a mixed one, and should move on. Some women are just more comfortable working with other women. Workplace toxicity isn't restricted to gender - women can be bullies as well (I've known a few).

I've project managed in the largely male construction industry and never had a problem that I couldn't handle. Then again, I've always got on with men quite well, and think I can give as good as I get. I known some women who constantly see men as 'problematic,' much in the same way a racist will always see problems when dealing with 'foreigners.'

My husband is head of trading in an investment bank, and struggles to find female staff. Female traders do exist, but a couple of the very high-paying US banks have recruited many of them in recent years.

Things are massively different to how they used to be, there’s no overt sexism, very little bullying, and it’s recognized that the skills that matter are cerebral and relational, not based on aggression or anger but…

He says that without any women in a team he can see, bit by bit, that some start to slide towards being like the beach volleyball scene from Top Gun. In his experience even a single woman tends to improve things massively.

It’s an interesting question as to why so few women choose trading, with mist preferring sakes, research, or support functions. The opportunity to earn a million pounds a year while sitting at a desk in a nice air-conditioned office isn’t enough of a draw.

they had to have frank conversations about him not being their boss. I have found him very challenging too but haven’t admitted this. I find it depressing that he has never been challenged on his atttude towards junior female colleagues

Which is it, they had frank conversations about it or he’s never been challenged?

Interesting how different people cope with different situations. I don't work for anyone now, I am a sole trader, but have worked in industry during the 80s, 90s and 20s.
Male dominated or mixed environments suited me much better than female environments, but its down to the age of the males and how good management is. In my last job I was the only female in the senior team and there was blokey behaviour, but if another manager even hinted at anything like inappropriate he would get slammed down immediately by my boss. The job before was toxic, again male behaviour but young males. The boss just wanted to be one of the boys and made me feel uncomfortable so I left. I could have won a sex discrimination complaint, but found a better job so just moved on and up.
I wouldn't have found your situation difficult to navigate op, but we are all different, and just because some of us could cope, that doesn't mean you should have to.

This reads as quite condescending tbh, people shouldn't have to make career choices based on what the sex of their coworkers is most likely to be.

It's great you had no issues in your company, I'm a consultant so work with lots of different contractors, other consultants, and suppliers and there are some which just have toxic working environments, obvious even to outsiders. Not wanting to be in these environments doesn't mean someone isn't suited to working in mixed sex teams. It's a failing of the company to allow the toxic culture to thrive, and individual men who think this behavior is ok. OP should move for sure, but its not a failing on her, its a failing on the company.

I've often been the only woman in a team or even company, I 'have always got on well with men, and can give as good as I get', but no, I wouldn't want to work in a company where (for example) the majority of the men thought it was ok to discuss how ugly the cleaners were before each site meeting.

one of them said when I arrived “would it be really offensive to say XYZ now Rororoooo has arrived?” And started sniggering.

the answer to that, of course is (if it was offensive) is to say "it would be offensive even if I wansn't here, wouldn't it?"

I just felt a bit unfairly compared to a junior male colleague who has fit in like a glove because, yes, he is good socially but also he is joining a workplace of people exactly like him

more difficult. The answer here is to try to direct the comparisons to between you and people on your level. Or turn it so that yes, he has fit in well and you have been mentoring him to ensure the best possible start, and it has obviously worked.

Some women I work with mentioned that one of our male coworkers kept ordering them about when they started and that they had to have frank conversations about him not being their boss.

You have to clarify the chain-of-command with your own line manager. Make it clear that you are not about to be ordered around by anyone. If it persists refer them to your line manager: i have enough tasks, if you want me to help you, you have to check with X. And then ignore.

I've found the best way to handle this indirect and seemingly harmless everyday sexism at work is to undermine it sneakliy. I have a very visible (in short sleeves) feminist tattoo so my allegiences are visible to everyone. Occasionally a team member will try something a bit sexist, and then they look at me as if to challenge my complaint: I just say things like "are you waiting for my permission to push the sexist envelope? it's not mine to give"

as for "giving as good as you get" no to that. With knobs on (and I'm ex army so i have seen a LOT of toxic behaviour in the workplace, i was in a very male dominated job).

That's being a "pick me" "not like other girls" type of idiot and it helps nobody. Toxic workplaces are toxic and shouldn't be encouraged. Everyone should be treated with basic respect. Banter is fine, banter that is over the line and insulting (sexist, racist, whatever) is not conducive to good working relationships.

Well, statistically speaking the majority of women prefer working for a male boss than a woman. Oddly, we have a stronger preference than men do.

statistically women will have more experience of working for a male boss though? and we often prefer the known over the unknown.

and very often female bosses have had to scratch and fight and sharp-elbow their way to the position, why would they think they have to suddenly start being kind and lovely?

Work culture is often very adversarial where it should be cooperative. Where i work we all do well if the company does well as bonuses etc are connected to how well the company does, and everyone gets some sort of bonus (related to level and performance) so it is in our interests to work collaboratively. It is male dominated for sure (but they say they're working on that, i have yet to see any real evidence of it) but the culture is more of what would be stereotypically female collaboration rather than stereotypically male adversarial competitiveness.

I'm with you @sleepymum50 is this one of those "You're so lucky because they don't beat you with sticks and pull your hair"* type comments

(*accurate description of how the scouts treated the guides on a mixed camping trip of my youth)

I think that's an interesting point about the type of women who would succeed in fighting and clawing to the top in a male dominated environment - I believe there's been some research that found that women who display traditionally make attributes succeed the most.

However, I don't know about 'stereotypically female collaboration' vs 'male adversarial competitiveness'. I think one definite difference between the sexes in terms of social interactions is that men seem more able to interact without taking offence of taking things personally.

For example, I work with builders a lot and they'll think nothing of jokingly calling their mate a 'fat bastard' but I don't know any woman who could call her friend a 'fat bitch', even in jest. It'd be world war 3!

I know the above was a bit of a crass example, but what I getting at is that men can defo get away with being more blunt to each other. Sometimes when working together it's of benefit to be able to be completely blunt and say 'that's a terrible idea, mate' rather than having to try and sugar coat it.

@TruthHertz "men can defo get away with being more blunt to each other." very possibly but * its worth noting that whilst men might very well be able to say (and hear) "that's a terrible idea, mate" from other men, in my experience the same men that will take offence if a woman colleague so much as implies she'd like him to do things differently without serious caveats to bolster and preserve his ego. I've seen grown men tantrum at their women bosses or sulk for days. *If men spent half as long worrying about women's feelings as we do about men's the world would be a different place.

Hello OP

After a looong time working in office environments in a male majority, quite 'traditional' sector, my advice is to look for another job.

Your examples read as not a big deal... Which is the problem with this dynamic. When you try to give solid examples where things crossed a line... It's really hard. Because it's subtle, not overt. It's a gradual wearing down rather than a few obvious things.

And so you end up wondering what isn't quite right that you can't quite put your finger on, why you know that you're not really welcome but nothing says it out loud...

Look for another job. One that pays more. The thing goes... It's not you, it's them!

I mean I don't know you but reading your post, looking at my experience, that's my advice. Which is all anyone on the thread can go on, in the end.