Male dominated workplaces and toxicity

[Rororoooo]

Does anyone else struggle with the politics in similar environments or have any advice to add?

I work in one and have had a few annoying things happen recently.

• Went to a small internal event with all younger men (some of whom I consider work friends / acquaintances - we chat and grab lunch together occasionally, they’ll message me for chit chat) and one of them said when I arrived “would it be really offensive to say XYZ now Rororoooo has arrived?” And started sniggering. I rolled my eyes and laughed, asked what he meant by that. His response was that it “wasn’t about me”. But has given me a complex and I really hate the whole all boys / locker room talk.

• In a recent appraisal which went very well otherwise, I felt that my appraiser unnecessarily kept praising my own line report and how at ease he was in social situations, comfortable in himself, socially confident, how they got so lucky hiring him. I just felt a bit unfairly compared to a junior male colleague who has fit in like a glove because, yes, he is good socially but also he is joining a workplace of people exactly like him. I felt like the subtext was that I am not like that.

• Some women I work with mentioned that one of our male coworkers kept ordering them about when they started and that they had to have frank conversations about him not being their boss. I have found him very challenging too but haven’t admitted this. I find it depressing that he has never been challenged on his atttude towards junior female colleagues and instead we have to “put up with it”

There are many things I like A LOT about my work. But it’s hard to get past these and to feel like I’ll never fit in, I’ve been there about a year and I feel like a smooth start where I was happy and cheerful and confident then petered out and now I’m less confident and more nervous around them. I just want to be back to my normal happy self but I know I’m seen in a different way now

[PacketOfPolos]

Hello OP

After a looong time working in office environments in a male majority, quite 'traditional' sector, my advice is to look for another job.

Your examples read as not a big deal... Which is the problem with this dynamic. When you try to give solid examples where things crossed a line... It's really hard. Because it's subtle, not overt. It's a gradual wearing down rather than a few obvious things.

And so you end up wondering what isn't quite right that you can't quite put your finger on, why you know that you're not really welcome but nothing says it out loud...

Look for another job. One that pays more. The thing goes... It's not you, it's them!

I mean I don't know you but reading your post, looking at my experience, that's my advice. Which is all anyone on the thread can go on, in the end.

[howdoesatoastermaketoast]

@TruthHertz

I know the above was a bit of a crass example, but what I getting at is that men can defo get away with being more blunt to each other. Sometimes when working together it's of benefit to be able to be completely blunt and say 'that's a terrible idea, mate' rather than having to try and sugar coat it.

@TruthHertz "men can defo get away with being more blunt to each other." very possibly but its worth noting that whilst men might very well be able to say (and hear) "that's a terrible idea, mate" from other men, in my experience the same men that will take offence if a woman colleague so much as implies she'd like him to do things differently without serious caveats to bolster and preserve his ego. I've seen grown men tantrum at their women bosses or sulk for days. If men spent half as long worrying about women's feelings as we do about men's the world would be a different place.

[TruthHertz]

I know the above was a bit of a crass example, but what I getting at is that men can defo get away with being more blunt to each other. Sometimes when working together it's of benefit to be able to be completely blunt and say 'that's a terrible idea, mate' rather than having to try and sugar coat it.

[TruthHertz]

@Brefugee

statistically women will have more experience of working for a male boss though? and we often prefer the known over the unknown.

and very often female bosses have had to scratch and fight and sharp-elbow their way to the position, why would they think they have to suddenly start being kind and lovely?

Work culture is often very adversarial where it should be cooperative. Where i work we all do well if the company does well as bonuses etc are connected to how well the company does, and everyone gets some sort of bonus (related to level and performance) so it is in our interests to work collaboratively. It is male dominated for sure (but they say they're working on that, i have yet to see any real evidence of it) but the culture is more of what would be stereotypically female collaboration rather than stereotypically male adversarial competitiveness.

I think that's an interesting point about the type of women who would succeed in fighting and clawing to the top in a male dominated environment - I believe there's been some research that found that women who display traditionally make attributes succeed the most.

However, I don't know about 'stereotypically female collaboration' vs 'male adversarial competitiveness'. I think one definite difference between the sexes in terms of social interactions is that men seem more able to interact without taking offence of taking things personally.

For example, I work with builders a lot and they'll think nothing of jokingly calling their mate a 'fat bastard' but I don't know any woman who could call her friend a 'fat bitch', even in jest. It'd be world war 3!

[howdoesatoastermaketoast]

@sleepymum50

I’m sorry @Adelishious I don’t agree with you at all.

I'm with you @sleepymum50 is this one of those "You're so lucky because they don't beat you with sticks and pull your hair"* type comments

(*accurate description of how the scouts treated the guides on a mixed camping trip of my youth)

[Brefugee]

statistically women will have more experience of working for a male boss though? and we often prefer the known over the unknown.

and very often female bosses have had to scratch and fight and sharp-elbow their way to the position, why would they think they have to suddenly start being kind and lovely?

Work culture is often very adversarial where it should be cooperative. Where i work we all do well if the company does well as bonuses etc are connected to how well the company does, and everyone gets some sort of bonus (related to level and performance) so it is in our interests to work collaboratively. It is male dominated for sure (but they say they're working on that, i have yet to see any real evidence of it) but the culture is more of what would be stereotypically female collaboration rather than stereotypically male adversarial competitiveness.

[TruthHertz]

Well, statistically speaking the majority of women prefer working for a male boss than a woman. Oddly, we have a stronger preference than men do.

[Brefugee]

as for "giving as good as you get" no to that. With knobs on (and I'm ex army so i have seen a LOT of toxic behaviour in the workplace, i was in a very male dominated job).

That's being a "pick me" "not like other girls" type of idiot and it helps nobody. Toxic workplaces are toxic and shouldn't be encouraged. Everyone should be treated with basic respect. Banter is fine, banter that is over the line and insulting (sexist, racist, whatever) is not conducive to good working relationships.

[Brefugee]

one of them said when I arrived “would it be really offensive to say XYZ now Rororoooo has arrived?” And started sniggering.

the answer to that, of course is (if it was offensive) is to say "it would be offensive even if I wansn't here, wouldn't it?"

I just felt a bit unfairly compared to a junior male colleague who has fit in like a glove because, yes, he is good socially but also he is joining a workplace of people exactly like him

more difficult. The answer here is to try to direct the comparisons to between you and people on your level. Or turn it so that yes, he has fit in well and you have been mentoring him to ensure the best possible start, and it has obviously worked.

Some women I work with mentioned that one of our male coworkers kept ordering them about when they started and that they had to have frank conversations about him not being their boss.

You have to clarify the chain-of-command with your own line manager. Make it clear that you are not about to be ordered around by anyone. If it persists refer them to your line manager: i have enough tasks, if you want me to help you, you have to check with X. And then ignore.

I've found the best way to handle this indirect and seemingly harmless everyday sexism at work is to undermine it sneakliy. I have a very visible (in short sleeves) feminist tattoo so my allegiences are visible to everyone. Occasionally a team member will try something a bit sexist, and then they look at me as if to challenge my complaint: I just say things like "are you waiting for my permission to push the sexist envelope? it's not mine to give"

[LivingDeadGirlUK]

@Charlize43

I think some women are more sensitive to 'male toxicity' than others. Obviously, if you look for it, you'll find it. Basic confirmation bias.

I do think the original poster would be more comfortable in a female majority workplace or a mixed one, and should move on. Some women are just more comfortable working with other women. Workplace toxicity isn't restricted to gender - women can be bullies as well (I've known a few).

I've project managed in the largely male construction industry and never had a problem that I couldn't handle. Then again, I've always got on with men quite well, and think I can give as good as I get. I known some women who constantly see men as 'problematic,' much in the same way a racist will always see problems when dealing with 'foreigners.'

This reads as quite condescending tbh, people shouldn't have to make career choices based on what the sex of their coworkers is most likely to be.

It's great you had no issues in your company, I'm a consultant so work with lots of different contractors, other consultants, and suppliers and there are some which just have toxic working environments, obvious even to outsiders. Not wanting to be in these environments doesn't mean someone isn't suited to working in mixed sex teams. It's a failing of the company to allow the toxic culture to thrive, and individual men who think this behavior is ok. OP should move for sure, but its not a failing on her, its a failing on the company.

I've often been the only woman in a team or even company, I 'have always got on well with men, and can give as good as I get', but no, I wouldn't want to work in a company where (for example) the majority of the men thought it was ok to discuss how ugly the cleaners were before each site meeting.

[PutinIsAWarCriminal]

Interesting how different people cope with different situations. I don't work for anyone now, I am a sole trader, but have worked in industry during the 80s, 90s and 20s.
Male dominated or mixed environments suited me much better than female environments, but its down to the age of the males and how good management is. In my last job I was the only female in the senior team and there was blokey behaviour, but if another manager even hinted at anything like inappropriate he would get slammed down immediately by my boss. The job before was toxic, again male behaviour but young males. The boss just wanted to be one of the boys and made me feel uncomfortable so I left. I could have won a sex discrimination complaint, but found a better job so just moved on and up.
I wouldn't have found your situation difficult to navigate op, but we are all different, and just because some of us could cope, that doesn't mean you should have to.

[MsFrenchie]

they had to have frank conversations about him not being their boss. I have found him very challenging too but haven’t admitted this. I find it depressing that he has never been challenged on his atttude towards junior female colleagues

Which is it, they had frank conversations about it or he’s never been challenged?

[MsFrenchie]

My husband is head of trading in an investment bank, and struggles to find female staff. Female traders do exist, but a couple of the very high-paying US banks have recruited many of them in recent years.

Things are massively different to how they used to be, there’s no overt sexism, very little bullying, and it’s recognized that the skills that matter are cerebral and relational, not based on aggression or anger but…

He says that without any women in a team he can see, bit by bit, that some start to slide towards being like the beach volleyball scene from Top Gun. In his experience even a single woman tends to improve things massively.

It’s an interesting question as to why so few women choose trading, with mist preferring sakes, research, or support functions. The opportunity to earn a million pounds a year while sitting at a desk in a nice air-conditioned office isn’t enough of a draw.

[Charlize43]

I think some women are more sensitive to 'male toxicity' than others. Obviously, if you look for it, you'll find it. Basic confirmation bias.

I do think the original poster would be more comfortable in a female majority workplace or a mixed one, and should move on. Some women are just more comfortable working with other women. Workplace toxicity isn't restricted to gender - women can be bullies as well (I've known a few).

I've project managed in the largely male construction industry and never had a problem that I couldn't handle. Then again, I've always got on with men quite well, and think I can give as good as I get. I known some women who constantly see men as 'problematic,' much in the same way a racist will always see problems when dealing with 'foreigners.'

[HumptyDumpty2022]

I’m a manager and the only woman in a construction company. The men I work with are inclusive and respectful, never singling me out. However, the same is not said for visitors, suppliers, some sub contractors. Only yesterday I was asked if I was the ‘door opener’ on exiting the building! I am also seriously sexually harassed by one subbie, I have raised this with my boss who’s said he will sack him, but I’ve decided to shelve it for my own peace of mind.

We’re sadly in a very misogynistic country, but I find it’s much more the older generation as the younger men seem to get it!

[HippoLover]

@LivingDeadGirlUK

Im completely serious. Somehow those “toxic” workplaces have always thrived from a business standpoint before hand yet strangely now they cannot do so? Or is it that some people who want places in said workplaces want them to change for their benifet so use the excuse of it being better for productivity?

Im not saying that what goes on in some male dominated workplaces is right - and I’m not saying it’s wrong. But obviously many virtually all male workplaces have existed quite successfully in the past so they clearly can be productive and viable, we just like to tell ourselves otherwise as an excuse to try to force them to change to suit our tastes.

[MangyInseam]

@ParsleySageRosemary

There’s a bit of a difference between men thinking they don’t quite fit socially into a female-dominated workplace, and women having to endure sexual harassment and aggression if they complain in any way, or being subjected to systematic sexism that says they and their work are valued less because they don’t have penis.

We’re back to: Men are afraid women will laugh at them: women are afraid men will kill them.

Sure, there is a difference if we are talking about harassment and non-harassment.

But it's also quite common for men working in a female dominated workplace to have some discomfort with it. Women may talk about their husbands in a way that seems disparaging. They may be talking about something and then shut up when the male colleague comes in because they were talking about female issues. They may talk openly about female issues. They may socialize together in a way the man doesn't feel he can participate in. I've even seen women make sexual remarks that made a lone male worker feel uncomfortable which is not great, but it does happen.

In my current workplace we are female dominated which is typical in the sector, there is only one man working in the whole public element, and occasionally our patrons think he must be one of the tech guys because he is male.

People do often relate differently in single sex groupings - people point this out here all the time - and if you are the lone male or female in a workplace that can be something that you notice and for some people it can feel uncomfortable and they feel singled out.

But it's not systemic sexism and it doesn't mean people are being threatened with violence.

[LivingDeadGirlUK]

@HippoLover

@MagpiePi

I think that is the whole point - they are happy with the workplace they have made, why should her being a woman give her the right to overrule that and “correct” then? It shouldn’t.
After all if it is so male dominated obviously she women aren’t actually needed there so why should the men be forced to change simply because the women want to adapt what they have made to fit women better?

I'm not entirely sure if your being serous here, but people being happy in their cliques and company productivity and viability are not the same thing.

In the construction industry the women are very much needed, there are not enough people of either sex entering the industry to sustain the rate of production now or forecast. This is something that has been highlighted at various construction summits and conferences for years now. Especially since Brexit as its an industry that has always had a high percentage of foreign labor. This is not just in the trades but also within the 'professional' areas of construction such as architects, engineers, project managers etc.

9/10 workplaces can manage an acceptable work environment and nip this kind of toxicity in the bud. The ones that can't should be called out and know its not acceptable. As already mentioned this is behavior that makes a lot of people uncomfortable not just women. Its the kind of environment that leads to stuff like the NG Baliey incidents www.building.co.uk/news/no-sackings-in-ng-bailey-internet-scandal/3091710.article.

[deydododatdodontdeydo]

We’re back to: Men are afraid women will laugh at them: women are afraid men will kill them.

Are we? I don't think OP is afraid her work colleagues will kill her.
That seems totally out of place here.
DH has told me that in his workplace (small company which is currently male dominated but wasn't in the past) there is literally no "boy's locker room talk".
I don't think all men are like that, so if your workplace is, a workplace move might be better.

[HippoLover]

@MagpiePi

I think that is the whole point - they are happy with the workplace they have made, why should her being a woman give her the right to overrule that and “correct” then? It shouldn’t.
After all if it is so male dominated obviously she women aren’t actually needed there so why should the men be forced to change simply because the women want to adapt what they have made to fit women better?

[MagpiePi]

@Adelishious

@TeenDivided I don't think it's luck at all, you're just obviously able to manage the social interactions that occur and enjoy it for what it is. If a workplace is male dominated then its naturally going to be filled with lots of men interacting with other men. I used to love working in the male dominated field I worked in. I loved the general male banter, sexual innuendos, bad language and the occasional sexist joke and could appreciate every second for what it was, which was men interacting with other men. I never felt that it should be changed in anyway just because I worked there and was female. They all accepted me 100%. Of course, they were crude and vulgar most days but I was married the whole time I worked there and never once did I feel that any of them acted inappropriately towards me. Any passes towards me were always in a jovial manner and boundaries were never overstepped, in fact they woukd always invite my husband too to any work nites out. I don't understand the kinds of people who believe that a workplace needs to change just to suit them. I think its got to be a sense of over importance of one's self.

But what if you hadn't enjoyed the banter, crudeness and occasional passes? Did you join in full heartedly and make sexual innuendos yourself? Did you also put up with racism and homophobia?

Would you have felt comfortable to speak out, or was there an element of going along with it to keep the peace, like a good compliant woman?

[OutwiththeOutCrowd]

Is it possible to distinguish between the sort of locker room laddishness that you sometimes get in a male-dominated workplace, which is tolerable, I suppose, and the atmosphere created by the men LivingDeadGirlUK is talking about?

In the latter case there can be more of a sense of repression and awkwardness, resentment of women being around at all and a tendency to shun them as work partners but also to harass them at times.

[LivingDeadGirlUK]

I can't see where OP has claimed this is discrimination?

In my expereince there are swathes of people who are inept at existing in mixed company. Funnelled from early childhood into single sex friendship groups, activities, and then ending up in male/female dominated courses and then industry.

Get enough together in one place and its going to make a toxic environment.

[HippoLover]

@ParsleySageRosemary

There’s a bit of a difference between men thinking they don’t quite fit socially into a female-dominated workplace, and women having to endure sexual harassment and aggression if they complain in any way, or being subjected to systematic sexism that says they and their work are valued less because they don’t have penis.

We’re back to: Men are afraid women will laugh at them: women are afraid men will kill them.

@ParsleySageRosemary

Yes but this is really just one woman thinking she doesn’t fit into a male dominated workplace. Unless you are being harassed or similar it’s wrong to think men should change the way they relate to each other to something more suitably feminine as to make her comfortable - just as it would be in the opposite.

Some seem to have an opinion that more typically female way of doing things equals right and more male equals wrong - but unless someone is being overtly hurt I can’t say I agree.

[ParsleySageRosemary]

There’s a bit of a difference between men thinking they don’t quite fit socially into a female-dominated workplace, and women having to endure sexual harassment and aggression if they complain in any way, or being subjected to systematic sexism that says they and their work are valued less because they don’t have penis.

We’re back to: Men are afraid women will laugh at them: women are afraid men will kill them.