Feminism seems to celebrate the masculine and look down upon the feminine

[Lpc3]

This crosses my mind a lot when I see feminist issues discussed. It seems to get on an equal footing with men women are encouraged to act more like men rather than celebrate the fact they're women.

It's as though feminity it looked down upon as second class to masculinity and therefore discouraged.

Does anyone get what I mean? I'm not particularly well read on feminism (plus I'm a man) but I'd love it if someone could flesh this out a bit more (or tell me where I'm misinterpreting a lot of feminist views).

Thanks

[SenselessUbiquity]

I think there is an issue not just with traditional women / men roles, but other roles within society, where the fact that some roles are disrespected and poorly rewarded has led some very simplistic thinkers to think that the answer is for individuals to propel themselves into the better respected / rewarded roles.

Traditionally women have done important, subtle, hard and skilled work which has not afforded them any material independence, and has left them vulnerable to all kinds of abuse. This is a huge problem, much bigger than one solved by "Well be a banker, then."

[Hadenoughofthisbullshit]

Men don’t really respect Disney Princesses. They’d be happy to fuck them, but they don’t see them as fully rounded human beings (possibly Elsa, but she is obviously a lesbian. No seriously!) that are worth of respect.

Should our aim be to be to get men to respect us then?

And we should do this by not being like Disney princesses?

And what we like and want and respect where does that come in?

I wouldn’t call that feminism. I think if your aim is to make men respect you by being like them your fighting a battle that you are destined to lose.

Can you be feminine without being submissive, vacant-receptacle; subservient. If I have to be those things to merit “feminine” then I’d rather pass, Thanks very much. of course you can be feminine without being submissive. Many women have made great strides in business, science and the charitable sector without giving up an interest in fashion, makeup, flowers, butterflies, pink or motherhood.

[Hadenoughofthisbullshit]

Should it be our aim to get men to respect us?
In a world which didn’t require feminism, we wouldn’t need to have it as an aim.
Unfortunately for too many men, it is being female which ticks a mental “unworthy of respect” switch.
So (personal being political and all that) we are each faced with the choice of forgoing the Disney dresses in an attempt to somehow make it easier for individual men to see us as people first, or insisting that Disney dresses are perfectly valid (they are!) but risk losing respect as a result.

Knowing men like that (some in my own family) putting on jeans instead of a skirt is not going to work. Like you said, being female is the problem for men like that.

I think about women like Dolly Parton standing up to (rumoured creep) Porter Waggoner and (music thief) Colonel Parker in a beehive wig, elaborate dress and heels. Then going on to bring in income to her community with Dollywood, give disadvantaged children free books with the imagination library and even put huge amounts of money into Covid-19 vacations.

Or known cat and dress lover Taylor Swift re-recording her own records and pulling the rug out from under Scooter Brawn who had made sexist remarks about her in the past and has made exploitative deals with many young artists. This will cause huge changes to the ridiculously sexist music industry and hopefully benefit artists in the future.

I’m sure there are other examples that aren’t from country music .

[RobotValkyrie]

It's really quite simple. We live in ultra-patriarchal societies. Capitalism is all about winner takes all, power, dominance, etc.

These are perceived as masculine traits, partly due to the biological fact that men are (on average, as a group) more brutal and aggressive than women (the crimes statistics say it all)

Women who don't want to live as slaves don't have many options.
Option A: assert a better position in the patriarchal hierarchy, by making "masculine" (i.e. dominant) values your own.
Option B: smash the patriarchy, reinvent the rules of games, campaign for more equal and peaceful societies based on cooperation instead of aggression. In such a society, "feminine" values of empathy, communication, etc. have a natural place which is NOT at the bottom of the pile, and are therefore safe to embrace.

Sadly, female safe spaces where women can put their guard down and be themselves are few and far between. That's why younger women tend to go for option A. Whereas older women (especially those who have had children) often realise the game is rigged, and the only way forward is option B.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Feminism as it operates today is essentially a man’s rights movement advocating for free on demand access to sex for men, little to no safeguarding for women and children, eradication of single sex spaces, …

MarshmallowSwede, that’s not feminism! That’s the Queer Theory ideology, spawned in academia, which is followed by some women who call themselves “liberal feminists” because they like the word feminist but don’t want to offend the boys.

Feminism is women centring women. Not as sex objects or fetishes. As human beings. As a feminist, I agree with you in opposing all that misogyny.

You and I agree more than we disagree. We oppose misogyny. I ask you to consider that the enemy is not feminism. It is the porn-soaked influence of Queer Theory, a men’s rights movement in practice.