Feminism seems to celebrate the masculine and look down upon the feminine

[Lpc3]

This crosses my mind a lot when I see feminist issues discussed. It seems to get on an equal footing with men women are encouraged to act more like men rather than celebrate the fact they're women.

It's as though feminity it looked down upon as second class to masculinity and therefore discouraged.

Does anyone get what I mean? I'm not particularly well read on feminism (plus I'm a man) but I'd love it if someone could flesh this out a bit more (or tell me where I'm misinterpreting a lot of feminist views).

Thanks

On the MN feminism boards, many of us want to encourage men to develop/ display their emotional intelligence, and be more - well, maternal obviously isn't the right word, but fully engaged parents.
So, absolutely not denigrating the positive aspects of 'feminine stereotypes', rather wanting them not to be seen as just for women.

Similarly, with male attributes - sure, expect to be listened to, expect to be in with an equal chance for any job that you're physically capable of and otherwise suited to etc - but certainly not adopting other stereotypically (but also statistically observable) extreme masculine traits such as violence/sexual abuse.

@Nellodee

I'm not well read on feminism and I'm a man, but I thought I'd come and list on a feminist board about why I feel feminism is doing things all wrong.

😄

@ErrolTheDragon I guess my point is more about where the younger demographic are getting their feminist views from. They're not coming to Mumsnet but are consuming a lot of TikTok and Instagram videos which always come across quite misogynistic.

I get what you mean OP. Femininity and anything considered something women or girls might be interested in is looked down upon.

Disney princesses became something to treat with disdain for example. Motherhood has endless articles being written about how horrible it is, how women don’t need to breed, how women who dedicate themselves to raising children are losers.

I definitely feel that for a certain brand of feminism they are actually misogynistic. They actually hate women and anything “womanly” just as much as your teypicsl MRA.

Are people maybe being a teensy bit disingenuous in their responses? I know the OP is a man, and that (understandably) the feminist board isn't very keen on men arriving and starting a conversation about how to feminist properly, or asking to be educated.

But... the question the OP is asking is something that has been pointed out countless times by women (and sometimes on these boards). In a desire to reject stereotypes, it does seem that a lot of women have joined men in deriding almost anything that has traditionally been worn, liked or done pretty much exclusively by women (especially by women perceived as feminine). It feels a bit like virtue-signalling sometimes.

Cross-posted - exactly, @MarshmallowSwede.

Some behaviours which are acceptable or admirable in men are considered 'unfeminine' 'masculine' 'unattractive' in women.

I'm not sure why that is, though. Being driven and success oriented are either good qualities, or not. The sex of the individual is neither here nor there.

I'm unimpressed by women mountaineering in risky places, leaving their small children at home, for example, but I'm equally unimpressed by the men who are more widely admired for their pioneering spirit.

@MarshmallowSwede

I get what you mean OP. Femininity and anything considered something women or girls might be interested in is looked down upon.

Disney princesses became something to treat with disdain for example. Motherhood has endless articles being written about how horrible it is, how women don’t need to breed, how women who dedicate themselves to raising children are losers.

I definitely feel that for a certain brand of feminism they are actually misogynistic. They actually hate women and anything “womanly” just as much as your teypicsl MRA.

I think its more likely that feminists see how the traditional roles of being a wife and mother leave women vulnerable and at a massive disadvantage financially, so having a life outside of those roles is seen as a good way to protect yourself. Disney princesses of old, waiting around for a prince to come and make their life worth living, are not great role models for our daughters. The newer breed of Disney princesses (The Princess and the Frog for example, where she runs her own business, or Elsa/Anna whose main loving relationship is with each other, despite all the Hans/Kristoff stuff) are certainly more rounded as characters. And nobody is saying that girls shouldn't be playing princess dress-up, its just that feminists also want girls to be able to play at superheroes and for boys to be able to dress up however they choose too.

@OP. No one has the complete answer.

However, don't confuse sex with gender.

Gender is a socially and geographically determined spectrum. My DP is male, empathetic, emotional, disorganised, good sports player, into clothes and shoes, chatting. I'm the opposite. Both of us are logical.

Neither of us despise the extremes of the spectrum but are wary of both.

And this is in a European country where most women can go to school, don't face FGM or forced marriage or sex trafficking or, indeed, domestic abuse and murder.

[quote Lpc3]@ErrolTheDragon I guess my point is more about where the younger demographic are getting their feminist views from. They're not coming to Mumsnet but are consuming a lot of TikTok and Instagram videos which always come across quite misogynistic.[/quote]
Yes... but otoh, I think many of us had odd or unhelpful ideas about feminism when we were younger. I cheerfully thought women had equality and feminism was obsolete when I was a student doing a science PhD .... in the early 80s. Well, I grew up and realised I was very wrong. And then for many life in general, employment, motherhood will educate.
Incidentally, the women on this board are a cross section of ages including some of the 'younger demographic'.

Well till man as a whole accept that women have a equal and important place in the world, and that some of innate female traits are valuable, workable and to be appreciated we can't get anywhere can we.

So you have to adopt "playing the men's game" to get anywhere. Firm boundaries, aggressive confidence, a smidge of arrogance and a "I don't give a fuck attitude"

So if men are "worried" about this, perhaps men should just accept women as they are and stop pushing them out when they are not "one of the lads".

Women aren't the issue, it's just we have to constantly play games to get somewhere and it's exhausting. And I say this as someone who broke through a glass ceiling, but I didn't do it by being my feminine self, I did it by pretending to basically be a man in a dress suit and heels during office hours. 🤨

In my view feminism is about rejecting the limitations of masculine and feminine stereotypes and thus enabling any individual of either sex to live life with the full range of human possibilities open to them.

Could it be that you notice more when a woman acts in a less expected way

How does one act like a woman? If you are a woman, then however you act... that's how a woman behaves. It's not performative.

It just seems the content on social media is very one dimensional. There must be a lot of young women who feel they need to act a certain way to make something of themselves rather than just be themselves.

I'm more worried how young men will incorrectly take the viewpoint that women are being told to be more like men because men are superior to women. I don't think I'm articulating it very well but it seems very toxic and misogynistic.

Yes I would agree you have to be this super confident, boss bitch, body positive queen. Not many people could live up to that.

I understand what you're saying and agree that it's toxic and misogynistic: to get anywhere as a woman, to be respected and taken seriously, we have to embody stereotypically masculine qualities, which then leads to men hearing this as "masculine qualities are superior so in order to progress women should take on those qualities".

The difficulty is that we are not being taken seriously as women by simply being our own selves because most men, and many women, only respect masculine qualities.

@RoyKentsChestHair

Role modeling begin at home. The first role model a girl has is her mother. Not a Disney Princess.

And if a girl does want a man to come in and give her the “princess life” so what? That’s not wrong if she wants that. Why are we saying women can only be proud to work outside of the home or be career women? That’s not feminist.

I’m a career woman and I don’t think it’s okay to tell girls that the only way to be empowered is to go out and conquer the glass ceiling and work. Some women actually only want to get married and raise families and there is absolutely nothing wrong with their desire for this.

I find it mysogynistic to tell women and girls that if they desire to be a homemaker and a mother solely, then she is somehow doing feminism wrong.

That again sends the message that realms and desires for things typically views as “feminine” interests as being wrong or less than.

Women can be stay at home mothers and be feminists and girls can enjoy Disney and want to be a princess and be a feminist. If your view of feminism is so narrow, that seeing that the appeal of pretty dresses and being treated kindly by a romantic interest is somehow bad, then I don’t relate to your brand of feminism.

Feminism is about choices. And I personally find the constant disdain has for women who are stereotypically feminine and into feminine things disturbing and distasteful. Women who don’t want a career and want children are seen as anti feminist because they don’t want to emulate stereotypically male activities. That should tell you that this viewpoint is operating from pure sexism and is anti woman.

Saying a Disney princess is bad u look up to is mysogynistic. Because she wear a dresses and is in love that’s automatically bad and to not emulate. These are cartoons first off.. and no matter what most women want a living relationship and no one in their right mind thinks a woman has no purpose except for finding a man.

Again.. this is an example of something that girls and women enjoy .. “might” enjoy.. or stereotypically enjoy, therefore it must be criticized and bad for our daughters to enjoy and look up to.

Yeah..like I said before. It’s always what is feminine and what women enjoy that’s somehow bad.

Have a good night madam/sir. I’m done with this discussion.

At the end of the day.. patriarchy does view men as better. So women think by acting like men they will be rewarded.

I argue that inspire of feminism and women’s adoption of masculine behaviours, women are not in a great position today.

Feminism as it operates today is essentially a man’s rights movement advocating for free on demand access to sex for men, little to no safeguarding for women and children, eradication of single sex spaces, legalization of prostitution with no regard to the sexual exploitation of women of colour and children who are disproportionately sex trafficked, exposing children to pornography, breaking down and desensitization of women to explorative and harmful sexual practices, normalizing kink as something to be publicly shared .. .and the list goes on.

Where does that benefit or leave women who wish to have boundaries and be able to make choices for herself that do not require her to divorce herself from what could be her feminine nature? News flash some women (a lot of women) actually enjoy having children and doing stereotypically feminine things. Yet we keep pushing the message that only women who are less than or losers enjoy this. Women don’t have to enjoy feminine things at all. But for those that do, what room does feminism leave for them? For women like me?

I love femininity and all “girly things” and to some I’m the worst kind of woman. I also don’t believe in pornography or prostitution as something to be celebrated and I’m firmly anti porn and anti prostitution. I also think it’s ok to want to be a housewife and have children. It’s also ok to not have kids and have a career. Women can do what they want.

The term “breeding” and “breeding kink” being used to describe the natural desire for a woman to want to birth a child. Treating stay at home mothers like they are parasites. Telling girls that if they like dresses and makeup then they are tools of the patriarchs.. maybe some women enjoy dressing up for themselves. Why does no one ever mention that women can ever do anything solely for our pleasure. It must always be for a man. These are things that show me that modern day feminism is operating from an anti woman, and anti feminine space.

I’m a career woman and I don’t think it’s okay to tell girls that the only way to be empowered is to go out and conquer the glass ceiling and work. Some women actually only want to get married and raise families and there is absolutely nothing wrong with their desire for this

And nobody is saying that they can’t do this. But there are ways to do this that don’t put women at such a huge disadvantage. Some of those ways will have their own feminist implications eg by marrying before having children a woman can protect herself from the impact of loss of earnings while staying at home with children. Would feminists necessarily consider marriage a feminist institution? Probably not, as the roots of it are very patriarchal. However it serves a purpose in a wider society which doesn’t put a financial value on child rearing. The decision to become a SAHM isn’t made in a vacuum. Neither is the choice to become a stripper or sex worker. Even the choice to wear make up or high heels etc. Women saying they do these things “for themselves” are missing the point that very little you do in this life is truly for yourself. You don’t have to be taking dozens of selfies and putting them on insta to realise that wearing make up is rarely for yourself. “It makes me look better/fresher/less tired/younger”. All of those values you’re placing on how you look are only there because our society places a woman’s value firmly in the decorative camp, while a man’s value is generally based on doing/earning rather than looking. Ask yourself why men aren’t beating themselves up because their hair is grey or they have bags under their eyes.

There are certainly people who talk this way. I remember in a parenting group, one woman was given a used toy plastic castle for her daughter - she didn't want to give it to her because it was "girly". Or you see people who seem to think skirts are sexist because women wear them.

You can see a fair amount of that sort of unreflective attitude.

There is also a lot of feminist material that seems to take male based work patterns and career values as the neutral norm, similarly that tends to see motherhood as a kind of inconvenience to be overcome, even a threat.

That's a more serious error, I think, than the pink is girly type stuff.

There are certainly feminist writers who challenge those ideas, and lots of individual women who do, though sometimes the latter can be pushed out of overtly feminist groups.

@Lpc3

It just seems the content on social media is very one dimensional. There must be a lot of young women who feel they need to act a certain way to make something of themselves rather than just be themselves.

I'm more worried how young men will incorrectly take the viewpoint that women are being told to be more like men because men are superior to women. I don't think I'm articulating it very well but it seems very toxic and misogynistic.

The attitudes on social media are a weird mix, and while feminism has been an influence on pop culture, it's mixed in with a lot of other things, like the drive to get more people in paid work, consumerism, and the sexual revolution.

So a lot of young women have a mish mash of views that doesn't make a lot of sense.

It is bad for young men, and I don't blame them for being confused by the mixed messages as much as the young women are.

I wear makeup for myself. My husband likes me without it.

I’ve yet to see any man who’s opinion of my makeup or what I wear would convince me to wear something for his benefit.

Again saying women “rarely wear makeup for ourselves” is extremely sexist as if women can’t ever really clothe or adorn ourselves for our own pleasure. You’re so far down the feminine =bad rabbit hole you don’t even realize how mysogynistic you are.

I don’t know what British men are doing.. but Swedish men care about how they look, speak for your men. British men might be ok with looking like red faced bloated drunks and not caring how they look, but Swedish men care. South Korean men are some of the most well groomed men I’ve ever seen. Various other groups of men aurally do care about their looks.

So are men doing self care for themselves or are they only looking after themselves for women? So you see how it works… if men can care for themselves for their own benefit then why can’t women?

I’m really sick of this bullshit as if women are mindless borgs and we only dress and bathe and get beautiful for the nearest penis.

Meanwhile, men are praised for their desire to look good for themselves.. but women. Nope we must be doing it for the sperm producers of the world. I can’t possible love lipstick for the simple fact of loving lipstick.

@Thirtytimesround

Absolutely. The one that drives me up the wall is how any book/film described as having a “strong female heroine” always has someone ultra-violent and non-maternal, and usually scared of committed relationships. I never see any strong female characters doing the things most women do. In fiction, a great female character must always act exactly like a man, no matter how unrealistic it may be that a 16 year old girl could kickbox her way out of a group of male assassins etc etc.

I,'ve noticed that too. Male writers. They can only conceive of strength in male terms.