Feminists unite... I need your opinions WWYD non school uniform related

[HopelesslyHopeful87]

This is going to be so outing but I don't care now. I need opinions as to whether I have a valid point here or if I'm in the wrong.

My DD is in y9. Today is non uniform day for CIN. When the non uniform day was announced the school sent home a long list of what the kids weren't allowed to wear. This list included things like leggings, ripped jeans, cropped tops, low cut tops, skirts, shorts. Very clearly this is aimed at the girls only and very clearly it's about objectifying their bodies. My DD told me that they are always told at school that they can't even show their ankles between their trousers and shoes to ensure the boys aren't distracted. This to me is absolutely ridiculous.

I'm of the opinion that a woman should be allowed to wear whatever she wants and it's more about being respected. This, to me, is skirting around the same lines as a rape victim being blamed that she was dressed provocatively. The list of

Now, obviously she is 13, and common sense tells me that I wouldn't want her going to school with her breasts showing or a skirt up to her bum but I don't see how ripped jeans or leggings is a problem.

I called the school out on this and the pastoral lead told me it was about "safety" not about their image. He claimed after a couple of years of rules and lockdown he wanted them to have a fun day with no rules yet sends out this list of rules. In one breath he said its not about sexualising the female students but in the next breath he says he doesn't feel comfortable with girls wearing leggings without an appropriate length top. When challenged on what an appropriate length top is he said it would have to cover their bums.

Today, to prove a point, my DD has gone in ripped jeans. She has been put in the segregated room for disruptive students and will stay their all day unless I take tights in to put under her jeans. Again, proves that it's about showing skin, not about safety, as the jeans will still be ripped even if she wears tights under them. She has refused and will stay in the isolation all day.

WWYD? Would you have the same opinion as me? I feel really strongly about this sexism but I'm doubting myself a bit and feel bad for DD being punished for this.

[JustFrustrated]

I consider the same rules for none uniform as I would for casual dress at work....which encompasses all of those rules. I wouldn't wear ripped jeans to work, even in my current role, because it doesn't look smart. Same with leggings, unless with a long length blouse.

Nothing to do with sexualisation etc. It's all to do with still looking smart and not too casual.

That being said, I do see your point. However, it's naturally going to be geared towards controlling the girls dress code over the boys - just by fashion style dictation. Your argument should be with clothes designers.

Also, I'm not so old as to not remember dress down days at school, and there were definitely the undertones of dressing to impress the boys ...tightest spray on jeans, low slung (okay maybe I am that old haha) so I'd say it's more about the teachers don't want anyone distracting anyone, including the girls distracting themselves wondering if the boy of the day is noticing that they look good.

So, bum firmly on the fence here.

[HopelesslyHopeful87]

I don't know where "the list of..." came from. Please ignore.

[Feelingoktoday]

I agree with the poster above. What would you consider is appropriate to wear to a casual office environment. Mine would not be torn jeans, leggings, vest tops, flip flops, shirt skirts.

The list is aimed at girls but it is usually the girls that push the rules when it comes to uniform. My sixth form son has to wear a suit and tie. His girlfriend looks like she is going to a club rather than school in her bodycom dresses, leggings etc.

[ClaudiaWankleman]

I consider the same rules for none uniform as I would for casual dress at work....which encompasses all of those rules. I wouldn't wear ripped jeans to work, even in my current role, because it doesn't look smart. Same with leggings, unless with a long length blouse.
Nothing to do with sexualisation etc. It's all to do with still looking smart and not too casual.

But that is definitely not what a non-uniform day is about.

I have the same opinion as you @HopelesslyHopeful87
If the issue is tights then the issue is skin, not safety, and that is misogyny at work.

[HopelesslyHopeful87]

The teacher that I spoke to specifically said he wants the children to "have fun" and be able to express themselves.

I don't see a non uniform day for under 16s as having to wear casual office wear. I'm not that old either and definitely was allowed to wear what I wanted to non uniform days and this was in the 90s when baggy ripped jeans were fashionable.

[SockFluffInTheBath]

My DCs school says similar. It’s a very conservative area and the school is important in the community, they’re very aware of their PR if you like. Asking the kids to not come in looking like they’ve been in a fight with a bear isn’t too much to ask.

A couple of years ago when it was absolutely freezing they let them go in non uniform so they could wrap up warm. They had to send an email out because some girls (and it was the girls only) we’re going in ripped jeans, cropped tops etc

[LolaSmiles]

Nobody should be using the line about distracting the boys, but that doesn't mean it's unreasonable to have expectations about what all students wear.

Ankle grazer trousers aren't allowed at most schools near me because they come under 'fashion trousers'. Neither male or female students are allowed fashion trousers. Unless boys are allowed to wear cropped trousers and girls are told not to then it's not unfair to girls.

Leggings are not trousers. They're not allowed in most uniforms and I can understand why they've made it clear it's not ok on non-uniform day. It wouldn't be OK to show up in a pair of tights as trousers.

Unless school are allowing boys to have half their chests out whilst telling girls not to wear crop tops, I don't think school are policing girls' bodies. Same for shorts and skirts. If they've said no shorts then that's no shorts for all.

I view non-uniform days similar to dress down days at work or casual dress days. It's not unreasonable to expect students (male and female) to dress for the environment as long as the expectations are the same for both sexes

[HopelesslyHopeful87]

Also to add my dds wardrobe consists only of ripped jeans, leggings and cropped jumpers and tops as this is the fashion and these are the clothes she likes to wear.

[PinkPlantCase]

@JustFrustrated on a dress down day at work though it would be absolutely fine to wear ripped jeans.

Non school uniform day isn’t for example like 6th form where students wear clothes as if they’re at work. It should just be wear your own clothes.

I’d probably go down the approach of putting things in writing OP. Maybe email the person you met with and include your concerns about the rules being in place because of worries the boys may be distracted.

Challenge them on what they’re doing to educate students about the issue of objectifying peoples bodies.

Such a shame that your DDs in isolation. I don’t think you can really complain to them too much about that one incident though as the rules were clear before hand.

[Seeline]

My DD went to an all girls school. Still wasn't allowed short shorts, strappy tops or crop tops for mufti days.

She now goes to a coed 6th form at a bits school, where girls are a definite minority even in the 6 th form. Usually has to wear a suit. Leggings, ripped jeans etc are fine for mufti.

[ClawedButler]

I'm with you, OP, and I am applauding your daughter's stand from across the internets

I would like them to clarify exactly what is meant by "safety". If they mean "things that could trip you up, catch on doors, catch fire or inhibit movement in an emergency" (so, like, stiletto heels and masses of hairspray) then that's quite reasonable.

If it means "put thy tempting skin and shape away, thou harlot" I would have a MASSIVE issue with this. What the hell is wrong with a pair of leggings and a crop top as long as it's warm, comfy and practical? Why is it "unsafe"? Do they mean it makes them vulnerable to sexual harrassment? Because if that IS what they mean by "safety", that is a problem. It's sending all the wrong messages to girls AND boys about body autonomy, respect and consent.

Teens shouldn't be expected to wear "office casual" btw. I'd expect teens to be wearing the latest trends.

[HopelesslyHopeful87]

@pinkplantcase I did email my concerns and I felt like I was very eloquent and I did say that perhaps objectifying bodies etc was something they could cover in phse, for boys and for girls. The phone call I had with him was in response to that email.

[RenegadeMrs]

If I were to have a smart casual day at work I would not expect to be barred from wearing a skirt or showing ankles between my trousers and shoes

I think the messaging is a bit confused. Is it a casual day to have fun or is it a smart casual day to teach them 'proper' smart casual attire? I would say they are different propositions.

[LolaSmiles]

Non school uniform day isn’t for example like 6th form where students wear clothes as if they’re at work. It should just be wear your own clothes
Our 6th form has a dress code. They're not expected to dress as if they're in work, but there's an expectation that students are dressed appropriately for a working environment, so not having everything hanging out (male and female students).

Students with their chests and stomachs out would be reminded of the dress code, whether they are male or female.

As long as the expectations are the same for male and female students, having rules on dress for 6th form or non-uniform days isn't unfair to girls.

[HopelesslyHopeful87]

It is definitely about showing flesh as the school have now furnished DD with a pair of leggings to put on under the ripped jeans.

[OctoberNovemberDecember]

In no way would I consider a non-uniform day to be the same as having to dress for a smart casual office job. If that's what they meant then they should've said so. They need to communicate better.

As for not being allowed to show your ankles, that is some proper Victorian nonsense going on there. What year is it, 1885? And even if it is supposed to be like smart casual office wear, plenty of people in offices wear cropped trousers, or sandals in summer.

Mumsnet always did have an overabundance of people working in smart offices. Your rules aren't obvious to plenty of people. The school either needs to stop being sexist, or communicate the purpose of the dress code.

[PinkPlantCase]

I guess then a follow up email after your meeting aswell? To confirm if there’s anything you don’t feel is really being addressed.

I’m just thinking that if you ever wanted to escalate this to the head or to governors you’d need a solid paper trail.

Id also consider getting this moved to the feminist section? People there might know a bit more about challenging this kind of thing

[Gingercake2018]

Your DD is awesome and good on her for standing by the courage of her convictions. She will go far!

YANBU, are you in contact with any other parents who feel the same. Maybe write an email to the head based around the amazing advice you will get on MN, sign it from all the supporting parents and children, then cc in the LEA, safeguarding lead, local councillor responsible for education and your MP.

Things will only change for women and girls if we call people out on their misogyny.

[LolaSmiles]

That doesn't necessarily mean it's about seeing skin. It could be as simple as they said quite clearly no ripped jeans, but you and DD decided that didn't apply to her. Leggings underneath is a weird thing for the school to do OP, but to be fair to the school they told everyone that the rules were no ripped jeans

These sorts of issues are why a lot of secondary schools stopped doing non-uniform days. Some parents and students are determined to read fairly simple rules (no ripped jeans, no shorts or skirts, no cropped tops for either sex), do the opposite and then complain or try and turn it into a big issue about teen bodies when it's a simple dress requirement for everyone.

[RestingPandaFace]

I agree with you but it’s almost impossible to construct an argument that can’t be disassembled on the basis that boys and girls don’t (generally) wear the same clothes and it’s the clothes that are the issue not the body in them. (See above)

Are there no boys with ripped jeans, have they been put in isolation and forced to wear leggings?

[ClaudiaWankleman]

As long as the expectations are the same for male and female students, having rules on dress for 6th form or non-uniform days isn't unfair to girls.

I don't think that is true. If you create a set of rules which you know (or hope) will affect the behaviour of one group of people - the girls - much more than it will affect the other, then you have created unfair rules.

It happens all the time to women, sometimes inadvertently and sometimes by design.

[JoMumsnet]

We're moving this thread to our Feminism: Chat topic, at the OP's request.

[OctoberNovemberDecember]

Non school uniform day isn’t for example like 6th form where students wear clothes as if they’re at work. It should just be wear your own clothes.

We could wear whatever we wanted for sixth form, as did all my friends who went to a variety of other schools. I don't know of any schools where they make you dress for work?! And anyway, millions of people don't work in offices, or in places where you have to dress smartly. There are so many other jobs out there. I know lots of highly paid people who work in IT, and they all wear jeans and t-shirts to work. There are also plenty of people who work in retail etc - would you expect supermarket staff to wear suits? If anything there's a load of classist assumptions here about what people wear to work. But then again this is Mumsnet.

[NoSquirrels]

@HopelesslyHopeful87

Also to add my dds wardrobe consists only of ripped jeans, leggings and cropped jumpers and tops as this is the fashion and these are the clothes she likes to wear.

Not terrifically practical for winter, is it?

I’m all for freedom of expression with fashion but there are accepted standards of appropriate clothing for appropriate occasions. We dress differently for sports than for shopping, we dress differently for a wedding at church than for a night out clubbing, etc. School is part of that.

I distinctly remember having an interview for sixth form college - non-uniform for everyone for the first time - and being asked to define what ‘appropriate clothing’ might be.

I think you’re sort of slightly right that this is policing female bodies but that’s because boys aren’t wearing crop tops or flesh-exposing clothes. Which is interesting from a social point of view. If a lad got away with undercrackers on show with a low slung belt and rips all over his jeans whilst your daughter was excluded that would be sexist.

Buy her 1 pair of clothes without rips in fir this reason.

[LolaSmiles]

Plus on a feminist level RestingPandaFace there's a bigger discussion about the way the fashion and beauty industry promote a particular image and expectations on girls. Getting beyond the fluffy liberal feminism where everything is empowerment, it's awfully convenient that many of the things that are pushed on women and girls happen to overlap with the male gaze. As someone on an old thread said, when we see men and boys doing all the the things women and girls are expected to, then we can talk about whether these things are empowering. That to me is a much bigger feminist issue than 'school tell all students not to have chests/stomachs out'.

I don't think wearing ripped jeans is an issue FWIW, but can't see a problem with a school acting when a parent/student willingly chooses to ignore a simple dress expectation.