Can men ever really 'get it'?

[MattDillonsEyebrows]

Just wondering after a conversation I had with husband this morning. I am currently studying for an MA, am very behind and have a big deadline coming up. We have a caravan on a site down in Cornwall, and he suggested I go down there for a couple of nights with the dog, to try and bang out my work.

Whilst I absolutely appreciated him saying this, I took a little while to think about it. As I needed to think about how I would look after myself in a largely deserted (due to the time of year) caravan park, it getting dark around 6:30pm, and walking the dog after dark etc. I wasn't catastrophising, more just generally thinking about safety and logistics which I think we all do automatically.

When I tried to explain this to him, he was a bit baffled as he has just been down there with a bunch of his friends and found it fine. He struggled to understand what I was worried about.

He acknowledged he didn't get it, and to be honest I struggled to explain it, as it's just a thing isn't it?

I should add, that he genuinely tries to understand, and he really wants to, if nothing else for our two daughters (5&4). He kind of gets the gender critical stance, and agrees with me regarding that, but struggles to understand why I go on about it so much.

I guess I'm asking is 'the fear' something that can ever be understood by a man?

Arghh! I meant to post this in Feminism Chat! Any idea how to move it?

I don't think your average white man can ever truly get it, no. Even if they understand the statistics and all that, they can't understand it viscerally.

But I've had many conversations over the years with male friends who were black or gay or trans who absolutely get the whole concept of constantly having to think about personal safety or being harassed or abused. So I wouldn't say it's true of all men.

As an aside, I wrote a huge part of my thesis in a deserted caravan park so if you can manage to go, I'd recommend it : )

I think there are two separate issues:

The actual risk of being attacked or harassed in any given situation, which is extremely small, and is probably what men think about.

The fear and ‘mental fear load’ which women have all their lives, and the knowledge that we wouldn’t be able to do much about it, though we do try e.g keys in hands etc. Women are constantly made to feel apprehensive when despite the media coverage, we are less likely to be attacked when on our own than a young male teen.

However, the fear-load is the one women have, probably because the consequences of us being attacked would potentially be more horrific. I think it’s the constant fear, and the knowledge that if anything happened, the attacker would get away without consequences, that makes a society where women have to change our behaviours. I think it is this fear load that men cannot understand, or how women are raised to minimise and acquiesce in situations to avoid risk of injury or death.

Not sure if I’m explaining it very well! Sorry

I don't know - I don't really think it's true that all women have this sort of thing on their mind all the time, TBH, and some men - even straight white ones - know what it is to be bullied or feel vulnerable on a daily basis. And there are many people who are capable of putting themselves in the shoes of another, as well as people who don't seem to be able to do that.

To be honest I camp, walk in the dark around the site or back from a pub without giving it a seconds thought. I don't think all women do have fear of doing these things.

I agree with two pp's. I don't feel like I get it. I'm very unobservant generally (lose my car most times I'm out, never realise people are around who I know until they are right in front of me, will often walk past DH and DS if they've grabbed a cafe table) so I don't think I would be good at spotting a threat, but also I just don't think I have much common sense (would regularly walk 3 miles home from the pub because the taxi fare would be spent on a last extra drink, will often go for a walk by myself in the country with no phone).

I may be naive, lucky, or just not very sensible though because I would jump at the chance to disappear to a caravan on my own. It's strange because in literally every other area of my life I am the ultimate planner, I catastrophise, I need maps, timetables etc etc.

I used to think they did but I had a conversation with a male friend at the weekend who I thought got it and he was completely dismissive of the 'bodies with vagina' front page of the Lancet and when I described how traumatised I was by a childbirth that involved being treated as a body with a vagina by the medical profession he just ended the conversation.

Oops sorry didn't read the OP. I thought it was about men 'getting' feminism in general.

Nope. They don't get it at all how it feels to be unsafe as a woman and the real dickheads complain about being labelled potential rapists when we get scared.

I've developed the fear over time and oddly enough I think it's because men have been concerned about my safety e.g. dh telling me it's not wise to walk around X at y time of day, or my dad suggesting not to go on the last train home on my own. Before these well intentioned men got involved I wasn't that concerned about doing these things. A touch of benevolent sexism there perhaps or maybe they more keenly know the real power of their sex?

Not to diminish the 'fear-load' (which is a good way of putting it, and totally understandable), but I think quite a lot of women don't actually feel that fear either. I wouldn't go and stay in a caravan in Cornwall on my own either, but because I'd hate driving there on my own and would be bored on my own, not because of safety. I walk a lot on my own though, and I am not scared at all tbh. I live in an area which feels very safe though, and have never suffered assault by a man, so I realise I am very lucky in that respect and I understand it is different for many women.

Yes I think that's it. I would hate for anyone to think I'm flippant about it. I'm not, I'm more passionate about feminism than I've ever been in my life, I'm regularly sickened by what's happening to women and their rights on a daily basis, but for some reason that doesn't translate to me as an individual feeling fearful.
Maybe it should? I don't know.

I don't know that it should. Stranger attacks aren't really all that common. The scenarios that are really more concerning, like going drunk to a private place with a male, particularly one you don't know deeply, many women don't seem to worry about much at all.

Surely, though, the main factor is actually the statistical risk of attack, which is much lower for women.

I mean, if white people started talking about how scared they were about being shot by the police, and trying to claim that 'the fear' trumps the reality....well, I don't think it'd go over too well.

Statistically, you'd be safer in the caravan than around your husband!

Whenever I mention not wanting to run alone at night to my husband, or indeed being unsure of running in a new place, he thinks I'm bonkers. To him, we are both as likely to be mugged, or have an accident.

He knows I was the victim of a random stranger attack (officially an "attempted rape" as I managed to escape the man trying to drag me down a dark alley). But, he doesn't think women are more likely to be attacked in deserted places.

(The idea of locking myself away in a quiet caravan park sounds lovely though. But I wouldn't walk around it at night...)

Thanks everyone, really interesting comments. I have to say, like @Dragonpox I have only got the fear as I’ve got older. However, I don’t think its because of well intentioned men, I think it’s because I’ve seen so much misogyny that I now can’t unsee it.

During my 20’s I felt invincible like many do, I was incredibly lucky with many of the situations I found myself in. Often not realising I’d been sexually assaulted until later, and then brushed it off as ‘me being too drunk’ or something.

In my 30’s I understood it slightly more when I joined the ‘no more page 3’ campaign (I was quite ambivalent about it at the start, just felt it had had its day) and saw the vitriol women got from men and other women for suggesting that porn wasn’t news.

As I went through my 30’s and into my 40’s, I saw more and more sexism and misogyny all over, I felt it harder when I read about murdered women in the news. I realised things like the reason I always smiled at a wolf whistle was becasue I knew how easily men could turn nasty if you told them you didn’t want that wolf whistle.

I saw sexism everywhere because once you see it, you can’t unsee it, and the more I see it, the more unsafe I feel.

I envy those those who don’t see it, and I often wish I could go back to my heady 20’s and early 30’s, where I felt safe everywhere, but I can’t.

I also think as PP said, it’s a different kind of fear that women have and I’m not sure any man (except trans men) or trans woman would ever get it. It’s not just about being attacked, there’s much more of a power imbalance with men on women attacks, which is reflective throughout society so much harder for men to understand.

MattDillonsEyebrows your post really does match my experience.

I have become far more aware of sexism and misogyny as I’ve grown older and was much better at playing the game when I was young, as well as feeling invincible then.

@MattDillonsEyebrows

Thanks everyone, really interesting comments. I have to say, like *@Dragonpox* I have only got the fear as I’ve got older. However, I don’t think its because of well intentioned men, I think it’s because I’ve seen so much misogyny that I now can’t unsee it. During my 20’s I felt invincible like many do, I was incredibly lucky with many of the situations I found myself in. Often not realising I’d been sexually assaulted until later, and then brushed it off as ‘me being too drunk’ or something.

In my 30’s I understood it slightly more when I joined the ‘no more page 3’ campaign (I was quite ambivalent about it at the start, just felt it had had its day) and saw the vitriol women got from men and other women for suggesting that porn wasn’t news.

As I went through my 30’s and into my 40’s, I saw more and more sexism and misogyny all over, I felt it harder when I read about murdered women in the news. I realised things like the reason I always smiled at a wolf whistle was becasue I knew how easily men could turn nasty if you told them you didn’t want that wolf whistle.

I saw sexism everywhere because once you see it, you can’t unsee it, and the more I see it, the more unsafe I feel.

I envy those those who don’t see it, and I often wish I could go back to my heady 20’s and early 30’s, where I felt safe everywhere, but I can’t.

I also think as PP said, it’s a different kind of fear that women have and I’m not sure any man (except trans men) or trans woman would ever get it. It’s not just about being attacked, there’s much more of a power imbalance with men on women attacks, which is reflective throughout society so much harder for men to understand.

I absolutely agree.

I think, coupled with the fear, I have developed an acute awareness of how women are blamed and shamed when they do become victims. In my 20s I'm sure I would have naively assumed the police would support me if I reported anything to them.

My experience of reporting a sexual assault to the police in my 30s was horrific. Full on DARVO, it was clear they thought I was a slag as I had the audacity to be doing things men do without ever being blamed, like having a drink or snogging a friend.

It's not just that we're at risk of violence (which we are) it's that we're at risk of then being persecuted for speaking out about it. And my awareness of that dynamic has only really developed since my 30s.

@ColorMagicBarbie

Surely, though, the main factor is actually the statistical risk of attack, which is much lower for women.

I mean, if white people started talking about how scared they were about being shot by the police, and trying to claim that 'the fear' trumps the reality....well, I don't think it'd go over too well.

The thing that makes getting shot by the police most likely is being poor and living in a poor neighbourhood, white or not.

@MattDillonsEyebrows you explained that really well (in your last post) and your experiences uncannily echo my own. In fact it was only recently, in my early 40s, that I realised a couple of my sexual encounters were sexual assaults. These days I am very cautious of men but most of the time I’m not afraid, more worried for my daughters.

To answer your question - I think men can understand on an intellectual level but they generally don’t get it on an emotional level.

“Many women, I think, resist feminism because it is an agony to be fully conscious of the brutal misogyny which permeates culture, society, and all personal relationships.” Andrea Dworkin

I think it's like you said, OP, once you see it you can't unsee it. And I can understand why if people are lucky enough to feel sheltered/unaffected by sexism, misogyny and male violence, they choose to live in their bubble.

My husband does get the danger thing as his ex was horribly assaulted by a stranger and he also grew up in a very rough area and was just aware of physical violence/threat more than people growing up in safe areas. It's strange, my mum has been flashed etc several times walking dogs etc through her life and gone to self defence classes but will also try to minimise the threat a bit when we talk about it- except when something is in the news. Maybe she's doing a bit of the resisting that Andrea Dworkin references?

I was flashed at once when I was out walking, tbh I just thought 'you sad bastard' and moved on. It didn't make me feel any fear at all. I've always gone out on my own after dark without feeling afraid. I don't know about staying in the caravan, it depends on the site.
My middle son wouldn't go out after dark on his own at all unless he could afford a cab, right until he got a job at Mcdonalds when he was 17 , and had to work shifts which meant he had to walk home from the bus stop in the dark.

Sorry I should have added to my post, I think personality is as much a factor as gender. I don't worry about things that 'might happen' generally, like I never worried about leaving my kids indoors once they got to a certain age.

Some men will never get it, but some men certainly do.
As said, men are more likely to be the subject of random attacks and all of the victims of random attacks that I personally know have been men and boys, and most of them are wary of certain situations and risk assess all the time, just like us.