Can men ever really 'get it'?

[MattDillonsEyebrows]

Just wondering after a conversation I had with husband this morning. I am currently studying for an MA, am very behind and have a big deadline coming up. We have a caravan on a site down in Cornwall, and he suggested I go down there for a couple of nights with the dog, to try and bang out my work.

Whilst I absolutely appreciated him saying this, I took a little while to think about it. As I needed to think about how I would look after myself in a largely deserted (due to the time of year) caravan park, it getting dark around 6:30pm, and walking the dog after dark etc. I wasn't catastrophising, more just generally thinking about safety and logistics which I think we all do automatically.

When I tried to explain this to him, he was a bit baffled as he has just been down there with a bunch of his friends and found it fine. He struggled to understand what I was worried about.

He acknowledged he didn't get it, and to be honest I struggled to explain it, as it's just a thing isn't it?

I should add, that he genuinely tries to understand, and he really wants to, if nothing else for our two daughters (5&4). He kind of gets the gender critical stance, and agrees with me regarding that, but struggles to understand why I go on about it so much.

I guess I'm asking is 'the fear' something that can ever be understood by a man?

we are less likely to be attacked when on our own than a young male teen.

Surely, though, the main factor is actually the statistical risk of attack, which is much lower for women.

This might be true for attacks by strangers and outdoors. There are probably some threads about how the assault numbers even out or shift if domestic and intimate partner violence are included as 'attacks.' However, my recollection is not sharp enough for a decent advanced search to find them.

I think it is a yes and no. I would not say my husband "gets" the fear of a woman walking home at night, in the dark, because he does not experience any fear in that situation, he is a 6ft 2in tall, fit, strong man, yes someone can attack him, but it is firstly unlikely and second against most people he could defend himself. I mean "get" in the sense that he just does not experience that fear, where as he does understand it and accepts that some women feel that way.

There might also be an issue around framing, he sees your caravan resort as a nice, friendly, safe space where you go on holidays, filled with families, he might not even equate it with being empty and desolate.

The other factor, even amongst women, is that some people are more fearful than others. I have female friends who think nothing of walking home from the pub after a night out, I some others who are funny about getting in a taxi on their own at night. It is not just a sex issue, but also an issue of the differences between people.

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

we are less likely to be attacked when on our own than a young male teen.

Surely, though, the main factor is actually the statistical risk of attack, which is much lower for women.

This might be true for attacks by strangers and outdoors. There are probably some threads about how the assault numbers even out or shift if domestic and intimate partner violence are included as 'attacks.' However, my recollection is not sharp enough for a decent advanced search to find them.

There are around 650,000 violent crimes per year in the UK, in around 82% of those crimes the victim is male. Note that is crimes, so where it is actually recorded as a criminal offence, estimates of incidents not recorded as crimes are 3-5 times that, so 1.95-3.25 million incidents per year. Men make up 87% of all non-domestic violence murders.

With domestic abuse the data is somewhat reversed, in total number of incidents is 2.4 million per year (some of which will end up being recorded as crimes). With women being the victims in 1.6 million of those and men in 0.8 million. Within those statistics most of the time a victim was a victim multiple times, so the total number of victims was considerably lower than the total number of incidents. For both men and women the perpetrator was most likely to be a partner they were separated from, rather than one they were currently living with. Women make up 74% of all domestic violence related murders.

Thanks OP, I really resonant with all your posts.

Like you I was more naive or blissfully ignorant in my teens and 20s. Now when I look back, I'm horrified that I put up with several instances of sexual assault.

It does seem to be everywhere though. Today's reports on what took place regarding Sarah Everard's murder is absolutely horrifying.

I agree, I don't think men really get it. My partner is trying very hard to be supportive re women's issues but I can see it's not on the same visceral level simply because he's never had to experience any of bad stuff (and he knows that as a white male how privileged he is).

he is a 6ft 2in tall, fit, strong man

But not all men are like that.
When I first met DH, there was a dodgy underpass we had to walk through to get home from uni.
I always avoided at night and crossed the main road, and when I met him I found out he did too.
He's 6' but he's gentle, non-violent and absolutely not a fighter.
There are millions of men who avoid dangerous situations like this, just t he same as women do, they're not all walking around blase and full of confidence.

@deydododatdodontdeydo

he is a 6ft 2in tall, fit, strong man

But not all men are like that.
When I first met DH, there was a dodgy underpass we had to walk through to get home from uni.
I always avoided at night and crossed the main road, and when I met him I found out he did too.
He's 6' but he's gentle, non-violent and absolutely not a fighter.
There are millions of men who avoid dangerous situations like this, just t he same as women do, they're not all walking around blase and full of confidence.

It is not that all men are fighters, most are not, my husband is not threatening at all, but being reasonably tall and quite well built he does not look like an easy target, and criminals tend to pick easy targets.

It is also not about being blase, or full of confidence, but on being aware of the risks. Walking home from a pub in our town is of negligible risk to a man, based on the stats it is of even lesser risk for a woman. Now yes there are parts of the town that I would not walk through at one in the morning and my husband would not walk through them either.

The reality is in most locations people's fears are out of all proportion with the actual risk.

Surely, though, the main factor is actually the statistical risk of attack, which is much lower for women.

I mean, if white people started talking about how scared they were about being shot by the police, and trying to claim that 'the fear' trumps the reality....well, I don't think it'd go over too well.

Really? Is a man more likely to be abducted, sexually assaulted, murdered and discarded by a stranger than a woman is? I didn’t know that.

“Many women, I think, resist feminism because it is an agony to be fully conscious of the brutal misogyny which permeates culture, society, and all personal relationships.” Andrea Dworkin

I think it's like you said, OP, once you see it you can't unsee it. And I can understand why if people are lucky enough to feel sheltered/unaffected by sexism, misogyny and male violence, they choose to live in their bubble.

TBH I find this kind of thinking pretty patronizing. People having a different assessment, be it of the danger of going jogging, or of men generally, does not mean they are self-delusional.

I suspect Marguerite is right, it is often a personality issue. Some people worry about things that might happen, and other people tend not to.

@YouMeandtheSpew

Surely, though, the main factor is actually the statistical risk of attack, which is much lower for women.

I mean, if white people started talking about how scared they were about being shot by the police, and trying to claim that 'the fear' trumps the reality....well, I don't think it'd go over too well.

Really? Is a man more likely to be abducted, sexually assaulted, murdered and discarded by a stranger than a woman is? I didn’t know that.

Men are a fair bit more likely to be attacked, I believe is the point.

The risk of being kidnapped and sexually assaulted by a stranger is very small for anyone.

I recall that violent crime statistics didnt include rape previously. They might do now . But they estimate there are 85k rapes a year and most dont come forward to report it and those that do have a very low conviction rate.
My husband thinks about being mugged and he thinks about groups of drunks causing a fight as risks but he never factors in rape.

Ok, but ‘attack’ is a very non-specific term (I assume we’re talking about fatal attacks?) It could cover anything from a gang-related stabbing to an punch outside a pub that’s inadvertently fatal. Men could be more likely to be attacked purely because they’re far, far more likely to be involved in crime, organised and otherwise. I have no idea whether that’s the case but it seems to me that just talking about ‘attacks’ is meaningless. It covers such a broad range of crime.

What I would like to know is how frequently, in comparison to women, men are abducted, sexually assaulted and murdered for no other reason than the fact they are male.

@Elephantsparade

I recall that violent crime statistics didnt include rape previously. They might do now . But they estimate there are 85k rapes a year and most dont come forward to report it and those that do have a very low conviction rate. My husband thinks about being mugged and he thinks about groups of drunks causing a fight as risks but he never factors in rape.

It wasn't until the Observer ran that series about femicide that I understood that violence against women hadn't been recorded properly for years and even now we're only part way along the path to collecting and reporting appropriate data.

Until three years ago, women of Ruth Williams’s age would not have been counted in the Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW). Then, it had a cap of 59 years, now it is 74, and is due to be raised next year, excluding institutions such as care homes and refuges; a hidden death toll.
…
“If you are found at the bottom of the stairs at 40, the police are probably going to ask questions,” says Bows, one of the few researchers working in the area. “Deeply entrenched ageism means that if you are 80, it’s, ‘Well, she probably fell.’

“When you look at police data on abuse, rape and murder, older women aren’t there. If a crime is looked at, at all, it’s treated as a safeguarding issue, gender neutral, ‘elder abuse’ with no perpetrator.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4185454-Observer-campaign-to-tackle-femicide

@Elephantsparade

I recall that violent crime statistics didnt include rape previously. They might do now . But they estimate there are 85k rapes a year and most dont come forward to report it and those that do have a very low conviction rate. My husband thinks about being mugged and he thinks about groups of drunks causing a fight as risks but he never factors in rape.

Yet rape of men by strangers does happen www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-55276209 I don't think men should live in fear of being raped , but I think they should be aware that it does happen, though not on the same scale as women.

I mean, if white people started talking about how scared they were about being shot by the police, and trying to claim that 'the fear' trumps the reality....well, I don't think it'd go over too well.

In fact (speaking about America) there's an ironic truth to this. The number of black people there who shoot each other is much greater than the number shot by police, by a factor of about 12 to 1. Most of the perpetrators and victims are very young, often teenagers, and of course, almost all male. But do black Americans want to talk about it? No, they don't. It's like male violence in general, just accepted as a normal part of existence. Maybe that's just the way it's always been, and always will be.

he is a 6ft 2in tall, fit, strong man

So even more likely that the assailant will use his knife if he has one.

I'm not sure most women 'get it'. They don't have to worry about being headbutted/glasses for making eye contact with the wrong person or accidentally spilling their pint while squeezing past at the bar.

Glassed not glasses

Walking home from a pub in our town is of negligible risk to a man

Not sure where you live but I would hazard a guess that a man on his own walking home at kick out time in most city and town centres would be at way more then 'negligible' risk from assault from other pissed up groups of men. I am certainly hyper aware during such times and will cross roads, avoid passing certain venues and generally be very vigilant and alert. I have been 'jumped' twice in my life, one occasion resulting in hospitalisation. I was an in shape 'big' rugby playing bloke at the time but that did not stop me getting sucker punched from behind by some weasely lad before being descended on by his mates.

My husband is 6ft 3 and broad/strong. He used to find that men would start on him unprovoked as a sort of macho thing in club/pub environments when they were drunk. He has been beaten. (He is very gentle) but again he views it as a specific risk in a particular environment.. But he has never been scared of being alone in an office with a new colleague out of hours.
Its different types of risks and consequence.

My husband is 6ft 3 and broad/strong. He used to find that men would start on him unprovoked as a sort of macho thing in club/pub environments when they were drunk

Sounds very familiar.

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

we are less likely to be attacked when on our own than a young male teen.

Surely, though, the main factor is actually the statistical risk of attack, which is much lower for women.

This might be true for attacks by strangers and outdoors. There are probably some threads about how the assault numbers even out or shift if domestic and intimate partner violence are included as 'attacks.' However, my recollection is not sharp enough for a decent advanced search to find them.

This is the thing though - here we are talking about being afraid to go to a caravan alone, or to go jogging, or being afraid in a parking lot. Whether of just a mugging or some kind of sexual assault.

That kind of attack is pretty unusual. In most places, it's not really something that it makes a lot of sense to worry much about. I'm not suggesting people won't, lots of people do have hears of things that are unlikely. But these are not usually high risk activities, including for women.

Lots of women aren't scared of them and it's not that they are naive - it's perfectly reasonable to not consider these things big risks.

Isn’t the whole thing that none of these behaviours are actually big risk.

But women have the fear drummed into them daily, together with the knowledge that if anything did happen (a) there is not a lot a woman can do to defend herself against a man due to physical differences in strength, and (b) society and the police would view it as the woman’s fault for putting herself in that (entirety reasonable) position.

Men do not have the same message given to them. My partner was very surprised that the female members of the family have to modify our behaviours all the time, watching drinks when we are out, low level sexual assaults as we move through crowds, sitting behind taxi drivers rather than the front seat, etc😏

On a rational level I know I am safe running alone at night, on a visceral level I do mot have that same comfort, due to the constant societal messaging that lone woman = woman at risk.

No, I don’t think most men get it. And while the risk of actually being attacked are low, there are lots of ways men terrorise women and get away with it.

I stopped going to my local gym because there is a man who follows women home from the gym. He followed my friend’s sister home, and I’m fairly sure I was followed for part of my journey too. And then it just didn’t feel safe any more to walk back from the gym.

I think men aren’t aware of the things women consider and do to keep themselves safe. Also when men are attacked people don’t tend to blame them for walking at night or wearing the wrong thing, whereas generally if you’re female and not a “perfect” victim, you’ll be blamed straight away.

Ok, but ‘attack’ is a very non-specific term (I assume we’re talking about fatal attacks?)

Why would you assume fatal attacks, thereby ruling out almost all attacks?

I think men aren’t aware of the things women consider and do to keep themselves safe.

From the replies in this thread, it seems like women aren't aware of the things men consider either.

I appreciate that help might be farther away in a quiet caravan park, but there's also fewer potential perpetrators if it is quiet.

I tend to feel safe when I'm out on my own in the countryside or woods doing wildlife photography or exercising, but would feel apprehensive about going out in a city. But plenty of people feel the opposite.

Just because some people aren't anxious about this stuff doesn't mean that you are daft for feeling it or that safety work doesn't exist.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58665603