Any advice/links to educate dh who is defensive when I highlight male privelege?

[buckeejit]

Was complaining to a nurse friend yest about my 3 brothers not cooking or helping with personal care for dm who is end of life. All their wives do it instead, (they aren't totally shit & are present a lot but just could be helping more in these practical ways Imo). I made a throwaway comment about men & their powerful penis not having to do the donkey work. Relayed it all to dh & was complaining in general about male privilege when he started with some whatabouttery totally moving the conversation away from this. He feels defensive & thinks I make sweeping statements & feels personally attacked.

I've told him today I felt really unsupported by his diversion & he's not a good ally as he's part of the problem if he's not part of the solution. He says he feels attacked by my 'sweeping statements'.

Walls are up & Id really like him to change his attitudes. So any articles/podcasts that might not offend his manliness?

Thank you

[buckeejit]

@topcat2014 you are in a fortunate position to be able to pay. We're happy to pay for private care also, it's just very difficult to source any kind where we are & we've needed it suddenly & there's nothing available so if we weren't willing to do it, they'd need to find an emergency placement at a nursing home. Being able to pay doesn't mean you won't need to do the care.

I'm happy to browbeat women who aren't feminists also

I didn't actually use the phrase penis power to dh - it was a half jokey comment to a friend that I then relayed to dh. I'm still not sure why it's such an awful thing to say, I wouldn't be offended by someone saying vagina power means e.g. the occasional man holds a door open or other women's privilege-I do like that the women's toilets usually don't smell as bad as the men's.

Re the military draft-I cannot imagine having a calling to an occupation like that but think I would expect an equal footing for both the positive & negative things unless there's a biological disadvantage-iirc women can't be master sushi chefs as our body temperature is slightly higher than men's.

The few women that I know that don't work, do all the childcare & all the housework. I get the impression that it suits their dh quite well to not have to think about anything apart from their work. I think a pp in this thread mentioned that basically lots of Afghan men (not Taliban), weren't bothered by women's oppression as they're happy to have the women in their place, cooking & cleaning.

[LobsterNapkin]

@buckeejit

Thanks *@saraclara* I really appreciate it & hope you & your family are healing as best you can. A small message of support like yours means so much right now. Definitely there are diversion emotions at play to distract from the grief. The last couple of days I can't get over how shit some of my parents lifelong friends have been & am really upset about this. It feels so unfair that my mum has spent her life thinking of & doing for others & most of those people aren't showing up when the chips are down.

*@LobsterNapkin* I get what you're saying & appreciate your point but can't help be disappointed that few of the men in my life recognise the important issue of inequality for what it is. I do think it's blinkered & ignorant of them & I feel let down. The conversation started gently without me thinking that I was trying to educate dh & escalated when he consistently diverted the conversation with whatabouttery. When it boils down to it though, isn't that what anyone who's highlighting these issues is doing-trying to educate others? Otherwise they already know the problem is there & are happier for women to take on the brunt of it rather than stepping up & saying 'I can do this....'. I don't think you can be an innocent bystander on this issue. Perhaps I need to find other ways of discussing it & shouldn't do it when I'm stressed/under pressure but it arises when it arises & I wouldn't feel myself if I kept quiet.

It's frustrating when people don't seem to be getting what you are saying. But ideas like whataboutery are seldom helpful or even properly used. Occasionally someone brings something else up in such discussions with the intent to distract. But usually, especially if you are talking with someone who you consider to be a good faith participant, they have a reason, even if it's poorly expressed. It's true that you can't look at these caring situations without reference to things like female roles, but you also can't look at female roles without reference to the larger interplay with other female and male roles.

I don't really agree that these discussions are basically about educating anyone, if that is what is supposed to be going on, there is an attitude that you are not yourself having to listen, to adjust your view, to consider that you are not seeing the big picture or that others experiences may be different. It's a big part of why identity politics have become so toxic and it functions mainly as a way to try and invert hierarchy, or privilege, rather than reveal that it's not real. It reduces real questions, like how we take care of our elders, to power plays. It can't get to the heart of real differences in people or social roles either because it tends to ascribe them all to questions of power.

None of which helps your immediate situation. Which is, how does the family care for your MIL in a way that is comfortable for her, and doesn't leave anyone with an undue burden. If some people aren't contributing, or are being jerks, what you really need to know is why are those people not contributing or why are they being difficult. And what would be a fair, though not necessary identical, set of responsibilities? That's going to be a very specific discussion.

[LobsterNapkin]

The few women that I know that don't work, do all the childcare & all the housework. I get the impression that it suits their dh quite well to not have to think about anything apart from their work.

Well, yes, why not? That's basic division of tasks isn't it, like you find in most workplaces. It might also suit their wives not to be having to juggle a job and home as well, even with a husband who does his share it can be a grind.

[AICM]

The few women that I know that don't work do all the childcare and housework and when the children have left home , they either get part time jobs or carry on not working at all. I get the impression it suits their needs to not work whilst their DH carries on working full time for 12-15 years after the oldest child has turned 18.

[ChaneySays]

@AICM

The few women that I know that don't work do all the childcare and housework and when the children have left home , they either get part time jobs or carry on not working at all. I get the impression it suits their needs to not work whilst their DH carries on working full time for 12-15 years after the oldest child has turned 18.

I agree.

Often the man is fairly stable in his career at this stage and is happy to just keep working, and if his wife is happy only working PT many will say to just continue with that if it makes them happy and they can get by on his salary alone.

I think most men don't really think about the 'what ifs' in regard to going part time etc because it's not really something that's generally done. E.g., their fathers worked FT until retirement age, their boss is still working FT, etc. I disagree with a lot of people's views on this tbh, because even though the man no doubt holds the power and will likely be in a better position if they should split (especially if not married), I do think on the other hand that many men are quite selfless in agreeing to work for another 15 years whilst the wife takes a step back. It's usually a gesture driven by affection rather than some kind of 'consolidation of power' as some seem to paint it.

[buckeejit]

@LobsterNapkin that's interesting about invoking hierarchies. I think I generally discuss the issues calmly & certainly agree that I'm constantly learning & feeling my way to what I think about various issues which I guess I view as educating myself.

I agree being a sahm has its advantages & don't think it's anyone else's concern how a team split the workload. I did have a good friend who worked ft as did her dh & I hated it when she asked him if we were going out ' please would you run the vacuum round the downstairs for me' like it was a favour

[Changemusthappen]

Firstly men have a choice to carry on working once the eldest child leaves home. Incidentally most children don't leave home at 18, they may go to uni or to work however they still need to be supported.

For many women going to work means 2 jobs, a full time job out of the home and all the work at home. Whilst many men now step up, my experience is that they really dont' have a clue about the load with many feeling they are 'helping' out a home rather than it being part of their job.

Whilst many women do carry on working research shows that their careers take a hit. If they give up work due to childcare issues (most notably that the man is not expected by employers to step and most men are happy to take advantage of this privilege) and then return to work it is more difficult to get a career back. By then they are seen as the main carer and still take the 'wifework' load. Once the children leave home they may work part-time however these jobs are more of an interest I would have thought, if they need the money they then have to take jobs that they perhaps don't want to do. Whilst men may do jobs they don't like they have had years of opportunity to change what they do. They have also enjoyed years of being able to climb the ladder whilst have little or no burden at home.

Then once parents get older it is the woman who is seen as the main carer and probably doesn't have a career, afterall that is what she has always done. So she should then move into the care of elderly relatives because the men are still doing their very important jobs.

It always makes me laugh when people think women should 'step up' after their children grow up as if they've just been sitting on their back sides for years and years. The problem is mens jobs are always seen more important than womens, they are always expected to be more flexible/fit in/think about and do what's required. There is a reason that married men benefit from being married, women on the other hand suffer longer with health issues.

[AICM]

@Changemusthappen

Firstly men have a choice to carry on working once the eldest child leaves home. Incidentally most children don't leave home at 18, they may go to uni or to work however they still need to be supported.

For many women going to work means 2 jobs, a full time job out of the home and all the work at home. Whilst many men now step up, my experience is that they really dont' have a clue about the load with many feeling they are 'helping' out a home rather than it being part of their job.

Whilst many women do carry on working research shows that their careers take a hit. If they give up work due to childcare issues (most notably that the man is not expected by employers to step and most men are happy to take advantage of this privilege) and then return to work it is more difficult to get a career back. By then they are seen as the main carer and still take the 'wifework' load. Once the children leave home they may work part-time however these jobs are more of an interest I would have thought, if they need the money they then have to take jobs that they perhaps don't want to do. Whilst men may do jobs they don't like they have had years of opportunity to change what they do. They have also enjoyed years of being able to climb the ladder whilst have little or no burden at home.

Then once parents get older it is the woman who is seen as the main carer and probably doesn't have a career, afterall that is what she has always done. So she should then move into the care of elderly relatives because the men are still doing their very important jobs.

It always makes me laugh when people think women should 'step up' after their children grow up as if they've just been sitting on their back sides for years and years. The problem is mens jobs are always seen more important than womens, they are always expected to be more flexible/fit in/think about and do what's required. There is a reason that married men benefit from being married, women on the other hand suffer longer with health issues.

You're right. I'd completely forgotten about the magical bill fairy.

[buckeejit]

@AICM are you male or female out of interest?

[LemonWeb]

Tbh you lost me at the word ‘educate’. I usually get an immune reaction when people use ‘educate’ to mean ‘bring someone round to my way of thinking’. It just sounds intransigent and smug.

Otoh I do see where you’re coming from on this: perhaps just talk it through without making it personal?

[Changemusthappen]

All comes back to money doesn't it!

What do you mean your a SAHM, don't your actually WORK, I mean earn money. You do know that if you don't earn money your pretty worthless right?

Look at social care. Government didn't factor in that like everyone else women can take a load, they can't do everything. Let's get women out to work, fabulous more tax etc. But Oh SHIT, they are now not doing the 'free' caring, Oh SHIT we;ve now got a massive bill.

Magical bill fairy, my arse.

[CBUK2K2]

@Changemusthappen You cant have it both ways, either us evil men all made women go out to work, or were all busy oppressing women and trying to for them back in to the home.

[buckeejit]

@CBUK2K2 most partners should contribute equally, not always financially. I highly recommend you read fair play by eve rodsky. There's many aspects to raising a family & ime when men just do the working 9-5 the majority share of time spent working is on the woman if they're cooking, cleaning, laundry, shopping, childcare, admin, if you both have equal downtime & equal say, then that's a winner.

[Changemusthappen]

Never said men were evil, where did you get that from? Although actually CBUK2K2 women were stopped from going to work by men and until relatively recently expected to give up work when they married, my mother is in her late 80's and had to leave work when she married. When women were encouraged to go to work it was with the expectation that they continued with all the 'free' work they did at home.

It's interesting that perceived 'low skilled' work done by women is much lower paid than that done by men.

We women are very annoying aren't we, pointing all this stuff out, asking to be paid the going rate, asking why we have to do and are expected to do all this 'free' work that men won't do at any hour of day. As buckeejit says, contributing to life, to society etc is not just about money and financial contribution.

It is only when society values what each sex has to offer that we will move forward.

[ChaneySays]

@Changemusthappen

Firstly men have a choice to carry on working once the eldest child leaves home. Incidentally most children don't leave home at 18, they may go to uni or to work however they still need to be supported.

For many women going to work means 2 jobs, a full time job out of the home and all the work at home. Whilst many men now step up, my experience is that they really dont' have a clue about the load with many feeling they are 'helping' out a home rather than it being part of their job.

Whilst many women do carry on working research shows that their careers take a hit. If they give up work due to childcare issues (most notably that the man is not expected by employers to step and most men are happy to take advantage of this privilege) and then return to work it is more difficult to get a career back. By then they are seen as the main carer and still take the 'wifework' load. Once the children leave home they may work part-time however these jobs are more of an interest I would have thought, if they need the money they then have to take jobs that they perhaps don't want to do. Whilst men may do jobs they don't like they have had years of opportunity to change what they do. They have also enjoyed years of being able to climb the ladder whilst have little or no burden at home.

Then once parents get older it is the woman who is seen as the main carer and probably doesn't have a career, afterall that is what she has always done. So she should then move into the care of elderly relatives because the men are still doing their very important jobs.

It always makes me laugh when people think women should 'step up' after their children grow up as if they've just been sitting on their back sides for years and years. The problem is mens jobs are always seen more important than womens, they are always expected to be more flexible/fit in/think about and do what's required. There is a reason that married men benefit from being married, women on the other hand suffer longer with health issues.

But the discussion always seems to be very job focused. There are plenty of women who take the Susan Patton mentality and prioritise finding a high earning husband. People on here talk about being 'self sufficient' etc, but some women don't care enough to spend the majority of their lives working to keep up appearances. They're happy living the high life on a rich man's money.