Any advice/links to educate dh who is defensive when I highlight male privelege?

[buckeejit]

Was complaining to a nurse friend yest about my 3 brothers not cooking or helping with personal care for dm who is end of life. All their wives do it instead, (they aren't totally shit & are present a lot but just could be helping more in these practical ways Imo). I made a throwaway comment about men & their powerful penis not having to do the donkey work. Relayed it all to dh & was complaining in general about male privilege when he started with some whatabouttery totally moving the conversation away from this. He feels defensive & thinks I make sweeping statements & feels personally attacked.

I've told him today I felt really unsupported by his diversion & he's not a good ally as he's part of the problem if he's not part of the solution. He says he feels attacked by my 'sweeping statements'.

Walls are up & Id really like him to change his attitudes. So any articles/podcasts that might not offend his manliness?

Thank you

It feels from how your OP is worded that you're throwing statements and words around but aren't clued up enough on the subject to genuinely educate him, hence your comments sound like, and are, sweeping statements.

Start by showing him that French comic strip, OP. He can read that in a couple of minutes.

@irresistibleoverwhelm

Of course men are privileged and of course they don’t like this being pointed out. Why should women tiptoe around even the feelings of men on this being pointed out?

If one half of people are disadvantaged compared to the other half, then the others are privileged just by virtue of not being disadvantaged. I haven’t any patience with men getting huffy at the idea - just shows they don’t want to do anything about it, and why is it the job of women to coddle them by pretending this isn’t the case?

Absolutely this.

We are supposed to pussyfoot around and never upset men and somehow they will magically change? We mustn't use words like "privilege" in case the poor dears are offended?

Get real. If a man cannot acknowledge that there is vast male privilege in the world and that he benefits from it then he certainly isn't an ally. See also white "allies" who get uptight when you mention white privilege.

Link won't paste, but search for "You should've asked" and it will pop up.

And remember, to the privileged, anything approaching equality feels like oppression.

The men have been enabled. dh and I both have professional jobs and elderly mothers. His sisters live abroad. We have always agreed I'd take on my mother and he would take on his. He manages the carers very well. Neither woman would want close family dealing with personal care because they would feel it undignified.

We are both turned 60 and have had a very traditional relationship. I disagree with you entirely. It isn't about male privilege but about women saying no. As for the preacher, we'll that's why I'm a Liberal Anglican.

John Scalzi has a blog post which I think is good at communicating privilege in a more accessible way - whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/?amp

@NewlyGranny

Link won't paste, but search for "You should've asked" and it will pop up.

And remember, to the privileged, anything approaching equality feels like oppression.

That's a great idea. It explains the mental load women take on really well.

Hopefully this link will work.

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic

[quote UnaOfStormhold]John Scalzi has a blog post which I think is good at communicating privilege in a more accessible way - whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/?amp[/quote]
That's brilliant!

I disagree with you entirely. It isn't about male privilege but about women saying no

But the two are connected. Women are socialised from birth to say "yes" and to 'be nice" and put others first. Women should be empowered to say "no" more often but this places all the responsibility on the woman to manage the men.

This is exactly the "you should have asked" scenario. It is the definition of male privilege.

www.hivelearning.com/site/resource/diversity-inclusion/5-main-types-of-privileges/

Try the above.

People get defensive because being called privileged doesn’t acknowledge the difficulties and pain they have faced on a personal level.

Say he says “How can I be privileged when I was bullied, when I lost my parents young, when I have a back injury that impacts my every day life!?”

I’d say yes, but you still have male privilege, and white privilege, and the privilege of having been born in country with relatively decent healthcare and clean water.

You don’t have the privilege of having ongoing parental support, having not being bullied and having to suffer the after effects, and of not having a bad back.

But you still benefit from the colour of your skin/being a man in this society, even if you don’t recognise it.

People are loathe to accept that some things benefit them. They think it means they have faced no difficulties in life, for some reason.

Thanks - I think I've sent him the 'you should've asked' years ago & it's great but loving the look of the Scalzi one, will read it shortly. The stuff like Mr coming first & men's toilets usually closer than women's I have pointed out but think dh just sees feminism as a bee in my bonnet & would almost give the 'minor' things an eye roll.

Yes it's the brothers I'm mostly annoyed with-for clarity it's my mum but I'm the only girl with 3 brothers. Mum wouldn't mind I'm sure-she had made reference to it previously in 'i wouldn't mind who was caring for me' comment, although she's maybe not really at the stage where she'd be able to say one way or the other, they haven't bothered asking & Ive got on with it & she hasn't objected. I think it's pretty piss poor though if you can't bring yourself to move a valve on a catheter bag to drain it for your own mother-it's a small bag at the bottom of the leg-there's no intimacy or offending body parts to get past-where's the difference of a male or female does that?

We're waiting for carers although a Marie Curie nurse is coming every other day but toilet & changing is done by sils & me.

Ugh, I just didn't want to accept the status quo as think it's shit of them & basically leaves me disadvantaged as I don't have a wife to contribute the help they're getting & I have dc to sort, they don't. I'm getting the feeling preacher bro thinks I should give up my work entirely (reduced hours now), & has commented that it's easy for me to take time off as I'm self employed-(as a childminder)

It's off my chest now & will keep an eye on things & continue to point out sexist behaviours to the brothers & dh without getting raging. At least I will try!

So your brothers' wives are both hands-on with their husbands' mother's care but not the brothers?

Good grief. That's one definition of privilege: having a service human on-hand to do the s**t work you would otherwise be expected to do yourself.

4wiw, privilege does not mean having a stress-free life experience. It just means there are certain problems you are simply never going to have to encounter because of some characteristic you were born possessing. Like being white or being male or being able-bodied or even being born in a country you'll never have to flee in a leaky boat with whatever you can carry.

@NewlyGranny yes that's it. They're discussing a rota for being there 24/7 but I've said there's no point in bodies being there if they're not going to help & just call for the women anyway. It won't be any more equitable

The problem is that women are going to have to drive this change by saying 'no' or, as many do, assuming it's not their job. Looking at this thread and real life, many women are not prepared to or don't want to change it. I do actually worry for my daughter.

To those posters who are saying that 'I love my MIL, I want to help' or family members want a woman doing personal care. Do your partners/husbands not love their mothers enough to care for them? Would these family members refuse a male nurse in hospital?

I assume that if you only had sons you would judge my daughter for not doing your care if you needed it? The same people who would judge washing not done properly or a messy house as being the woman not womaning properly.

It's just plain wrong. The change is happening slowly but I don't think women help themselves and actually I wonder if it makes some women feel important? You see all the time on here, it's just expected that the woman will look after elderly relatives, step children, the new family pet. All the grunt work falls to women.

Lastly the stats show that being married benefits a man greatly, they live longer. Whilst women may live longer than men their health and health conditions are worse than mens for longer.

Absolutely, @Changemusthappen. My MIL spent much of her late middle age and into her early 70s to-ing and fro-ing to look after two of FIL's elderly relatives (her own parents had died in relatively early old age). She's very dynamic and quite a general do-gooder, so it was partly in her nature, but it absolutely wore her out in the end. It will be interesting to see what happens as she and FIL get older and need any care. Dh wouldn't expect me to do it. I'd help, but it would be his responsibility. Not so sure about his brother though. SIL is very kind and family minded and they have no dc...

This is anecdotal, but a good example I think:

www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/heres-what-happened-when-a-man-pretended-to-be-a-woman-at-work-hint-his-job-got-.html

Bet you wouldn't like it if he lectured you on the male suicide rate and how 99% of people who don't work and get bankrolled by a partner are female.

This is short but good.

@Leafstamp yes I've seen that before & found it so interesting. @JaninaDuszejko I liked that, may be better than listing the 'small fry' on my fingers.

@ChaneySays i didn't lecture him. I'm well aware of the things you mentioned & would never derail the dialogue because I feel defensive. I'd be interested in discussing the reasons why these things happen. Crucially a lot of the problems contributing to your examples are to do with gender stereotypes.

Emptying a catheter bag is not intimate. The brothers should at least be able to do that. They can also help financially and do cooking, cleaning, gardening.

I think you do also have the option of asking your husband to help with some of the non intimate stuff - including emptying the catheter bag. You can say that when the time comes, you would also help with his parents.

I would also be encouraging my own children to help out with their grandparent in small ways (especially the boys) - not because boys are incapable, but because it is easier for them to think it is not important.

@Namenic yes, the brothers help a bit with practical stuff. Was thinking of asking ds to help put cream on her legs & will give him the non catheter leg. He is well versed that there shouldn't be expectations on females that are there aren't on males.

We had a meeting with the brothers last night & I got a lot off my chest & asked them to think about elements of personal care as bodies being here but not helping aren't efficient. Honestly, I do get the impression that my opinion as a woman isn't that important.

@sashh Are you seriously using having to scroll in a web form as a sign that men are privileged?

Emptying a catheter bag is not intimate.

It is to the person that the catheter bag is attached to. It can be embarrassing and uncomfortable to have family members disposing of your waste products.

Few posters here are considering what the DM wants.

@saraclara while we're waiting for carers to be in place, who else is going to do it if not family?

[quote buckeejit]@saraclara while we're waiting for carers to be in place, who else is going to do it if not family?[/quote]
I know. There's no choice of course. But the PP said that emptying a catheter bag isn't intimate. That was the only thing I was disagreeing with. Anyone who's had their bodily excreta dealt with by someone else,knows that it's an intimate thing, even if it doesn't involve touching their body.

I nursed my late DH at home until he died. But it was important to recognise that it was difficult for him to lose his dignity and have his most intimate care done for him by his wife and young adult daughters.

We were three females. Sadly he had no choice but to have his daughters carry out the most intimate care (I needed to sleep sometimes), but I suspect that had a male been available, he might have preferred it.

That's why I've said throughout that your mum's preferances count.