Lipstick

[Palmyra]

In general; do women wear lipstick for men's gratification?

If women do take notice it'll usually be to make a bitchy comment IME, they won't be staring at another women pert arse in admiration let's be honest.

Do we not? I've always looked at attractive women's bodies with admiration. Not in a lechy way, I don't think, but I do take notice of and admire a pert arse/good boobs/toned arms when I see them. Is that really not something everyone does?

@trancepants

If women do take notice it'll usually be to make a bitchy comment IME, they won't be staring at another women pert arse in admiration let's be honest.

Do we not? I've always looked at attractive women's bodies with admiration. Not in a lechy way, I don't think, but I do take notice of and admire a pert arse/good boobs/toned arms when I see them. Is that really not something everyone does?

Trying to be modest here but I have 'good boobs' and I've noticed that some female colleagues look at them in conversation whereas the men never do (well they've been caught once or twice but not to the same extent). Whenever I catch a woman looking at me in this way, I assume they are being catty or judgemental. If it was for the opposite reason, it would be lovely to know!

OP, it is more complicated than gratifying men whatever that means. Like a PP said, we have always adorned ourselves, the animal kingdom and birds in particular do this too. There is nothing wrong with wanting to look attractive and frankly I'd give side eye to any woman telling me I'm only wearing lipstick to gratify men in a judgemental manner.

I also wore it lots over lockdown when no one saw me and painted my nails a lot too. You could say this is down to conditioning but actually as a pale person I look much better and feel uplifted with a bit of colour in my face.

If women do take notice it'll usually be to make a bitchy comment IME, they won't be staring at another women pert arse in admiration let's be honest.

That is not my experience. The women I know look with admiration. They know how much work goes into it.

I love makeup. Started wearing it aged 14, in the 70's. For me it was about theatre, costume, playing a role - never about the male gaze. That was the era of glam rock, and men wore more makeup than women!(god I miss Mark Bolan).

I like to look my best, for me, nobody else, and wearing lipstick is part of that. If I were marooned on a desert island I'd still wear my lipstick. Most people are egocentric, it's part of the human condition, nothing to do with being attractive to the opposite sex.

Most people are egocentric, it's part of the human condition, nothing to do with being attractive to the opposite sex

That's a good point.

@trancepants

I like to show off my muscular arms and shoulders because I love how I've made them look. But I don't actually think I do it for male attention as I'm not sure that men are that into muscular women.

I can understand this because it's how I feel about lifting (can DL 140kg which I'm quite proud of tbh). But I think part of that is the satisfaction of accomplishment having put in the hard work.

That is not my experience. The women I know look with admiration. They know how much work goes into it.

I was more talking about women dressing 'provocatively' than the good figure bit. I've found women to be much more disparaging, although obv not all. I mean, look at all the gossip magazines with 'see Kate Moss's giant zit!' etc. Men aren't interested in that stuff. You'll never see a lads mag with a front page headline about Ben Affleck's beer belly etc.

I rarely wear make up when i do i love to wear lipstick. I am quite pale and i feel lipstick 'brightens me up' and lifts my mood. I think it makes my teeth look whiter too, i have a thing about teeth. I am an old gimmer and there is zero chance of any man noticing if my lips are a shade darker than my natural colour, i wear it for me, 100%.

I don't wear lipstick, or indeed any makeup, or if I do it is very (very!) rarely.
When I do though, it's because I want to wear it, not what any man might think.

So why is it mainly women who wear makeup (in our society now)?

Unless you think it's somehow a biological drive, it's social conditioning and that includes patriarchal conditioning. Of course we dont always think about it consciously in those terms- that doesn't mean it's not there.

Women are expected to look a certain way, that includes body shape, skin, hair etc. The fact many women 'choose' to look that way- shave legs etc- does not mean that their 'choice' is not influenced by social conditioning throughout their life.

And of course men have other things they 'choose'.

I agree on the leg shaving. I shave my lower legs when they are going to be seen. Which is year round now as I tend to wear gym leggings that stop at my calves through the winter. And I resent it. I don't really like shaving my legs. I think I'd prefer to leave the hair grow and just be there. I suspect that even though my regrowth is dark, if I left it, it would eventually go blonde like the hair on my arms. But I shave because of how very unusual it is for women to have hairy legs. It feels like I'd be making a massive statement by leaving it grow, when really all I'd be saying is, grooming bores me.

On the other hand, I would still choose to shave my armpits. I'm very physical, sweat a lot and like to have the option to quickly wash my armpits throughout the day. (I don't mean I don't shower, but if I've just done a lot of endurance-cardio and have 30 minute drive home, I like being able to do a quick, effective wipe down rather than have to smell myself for the drive home.) I know from experience that the smell clings more to armpit hair, so I'm very happy to have that gone.

@FarFrom

So why is it mainly women who wear makeup (in our society now)?

Unless you think it's somehow a biological drive, it's social conditioning and that includes patriarchal conditioning. Of course we dont always think about it consciously in those terms- that doesn't mean it's not there.

Women are expected to look a certain way, that includes body shape, skin, hair etc. The fact many women 'choose' to look that way- shave legs etc- does not mean that their 'choice' is not influenced by social conditioning throughout their life.

And of course men have other things they 'choose'.

Indeed.

I'm also surprised that it's often the people who you'd expect to be against gender norms who get annoyed when men wear female clothing/makeup etc - e.g. drag queens.

So why is it mainly women who wear makeup (in our society now)?

Because we can. Although it is changing slowly, men "can't" wear make-up and skirts because it's still taboo.

It might not be consciously or specifically done to attract a man but those are the origins of it.

Red lipstick highlights the lips and 'resembles' the labia of sexually aroused women. So it makes us appear more sexually desirable.

That might not be why women wear lipstick on a daily basis but it's why lipstick was invented for women to wear.

I'm also surprised that it's often the people who you'd expect to be against gender norms who get annoyed when men wear female clothing/makeup etc - e.g. drag queens.

Drag Queens aren't smashing gender norms, they're parodying women. That's why.

I was more talking about women dressing 'provocatively' than the good figure bit. I've found women to be much more disparaging, although obv not all. I mean, look at all the gossip magazines with'see Kate Moss's giant zit!'etc. Men aren't interested in that stuff. You'll never see a lads mag with a front page headline about Ben Affleck's beer belly etc.

Women have been conditioned to compete for male attention. Men get to sit back and enjoy the view. They haven't been conditioned to compete with each other for female attention and, when they do, they're not interested in picking at other men's bodies, they're targeting the women who reject them.

Just a perspective...

It might not be consciously or specifically done to attract a man but those are the origins of it.
Says who?

it's why lipstick was invented for women to wear.
Lipstick wasn't invented for women. It was used by both sexes throughout history. At some point men dropped it.

OP, it is more complicated than gratifying men whatever that means. Like a PP said, we have always adorned ourselves, the animal kingdom and birds in particular do this too.

Are there any animals that do this that don't reproduce sexually? Or where it isn't associated with attracting a mate?

Off the top of my head I don't think there are any.

I’ve always thought women dress for other women Rather than men. See a group of women on a hen party, they are dressed up to nines. See one woman at a football match, they are usually dressed right down. I dress up more when I’m with my girlfriends. Not so much if I’m with a group of male friends.

Some women wear makeup that isn't stereotypically attractive to men though. It can be an expression of self, just like clothes or piercings and tattoos, or hair colours.

Also I do not buy the red lips private parts myth. How many Men know what a ripe labia looks like? At any time in history? In grown women it’s always been covered in pubic hair for a start. Red lips denotes youth, that’s all. Young girls look rosier all round and, as u get older you lose colour in your lips and face and lipstick brings your face to life. And makes teeth look whiter.

I hate red lipstick. Never wear it. I liked mauves, lilacs, powdery baby pink, or dusty rose type of colours. I think they suit me. Sometimes purple, if feeling more daring.

Whether or not individual women think they are doing it for men (or other women) or not, is not really the point.

The bigger question is about why women do this and not men? Why adult females and not little girls?

Why do the majority of representations of women in popular culture have 'painted faces' and hair free legs? This is is part of how men and women are conditioned from infancy to think adult women should look and be. And that men should not be. And part of that is undoubtedly about objectification.

Lipstick or not in itself doesnt matter - but the conditioning behind it does.

Well it's just good old fashioned women as objects for male gaze plus capitalism wanting to flog stuff.

Nothing new.

Men do it too. Do they get why do you wear aftershave/ have such fancy hair on their sites?

Humans have always adorned themselves and each other in masses of ways.

The problem is not the lipstick.

The problem is the massively deep tricky
current social norms. Around in the end the things that lead to all the issues women and girls face.

'Men do it too. Do they get why do you wear aftershave/ have such fancy hair on their sites?'

Hopefully they do, if they are on sites thinking about the patriarchy and structural sex based inequality and oppression (or other equivalent of a board about feminism)!

@ididitsocanyou

Also I do not buy the red lips private parts myth. How many Men know what a ripe labia looks like? At any time in history? In grown women it’s always been covered in pubic hair for a start. Red lips denotes youth, that’s all. Young girls look rosier all round and, as u get older you lose colour in your lips and face and lipstick brings your face to life. And makes teeth look whiter.

Lolol quite.

My gob doesn't look like my labia/ vagina. No matter how much lipstick I put on it!

And neither does anyone elses.

It's like that chap on the telly who said we have breasts that are there all the time not just when bf. Because they look like arses. And as we walk upright we need to have arse-tits to get the men to feel all sexy.

I mean FGS.

@FarFrom

'Men do it too. Do they get why do you wear aftershave/ have such fancy hair on their sites?'

Hopefully they do, if they are on sites thinking about the patriarchy and structural sex based inequality and oppression (or other equivalent of a board about feminism)!

Heh good one 🤣🤣🤣