Lipstick

[Palmyra]

In general; do women wear lipstick for men's gratification?

@Palmyra

Why do you ask OP, what's your view?

I was people watching, when I saw a particular woman with very bright noticeable lipstick. That's when I suddenly thought "In the 21 century, what's the actual point of lipstick, why enhance your mouth?", unlike eye makeup which accentuates your eye colour (I assume), why are you accentuating your mouth. What is that communicating? That got me to thinking about its origins. Hence the question.

Wait, what is eye make up communicating?

I don't wear any make-up and have not done so for about three decades. I can't be bothered.

Do men wear lipstick and other cosmetics to please women? No, of course, they do not.

Of course women 'do themselves up' if not to please men because there are standards of female beauty they wish to reach or are taught from a young age they need to reach. It would be naive to suggest otherwise.

I wear lipstick and other make-up (not much) because I like wearing it. I enjoy buying it, looking at the packaging and colours and chatting to the lady at the counter. It's a treat and it's pleasurable.

I wear lipstick that coordinates with my outfit. I spend a lot of time makeup free, and when I do wear it, it's because I enjoy having fun playing with colours and different looks - it's no different to painting or drawing for me.

When I met my now DP at work, he saw me without makeup 95% of the time, so he's always a bit startled to see me in it 😁

I've never worn makeup to please men, or because I've been 'conditioned' to. I suppose as women we ARE conditioned to, as the vast, VAST majority of cosmetics available are firmly marketed towards women, and throughout history women have worn some form of makeup.

My late (male) best friend had waist-length blond hair, high cheekbones, and the most astonishing green eyes. He looked amazing made-up, the bastard 😂

Christ I promise I put paragraphs in that! Bloody app.

I don't like the colour of my natural lips - too red. I don't think I'd wear lipstick as much if they were on the neutral pink side. I don't wear red toned lipstick.

I like to be happy with how I look when I see my reflection.

I look a bit anaemic without it. It is to brighten up my face. Same as blusher and bronzer. Also i use an lip balm type of one so it moisturises my lips. If I'm on a night out I might wear a brighter colour, but that's not for men either, it's to go with my outfit like a handbag or shoes.

I have pale lips , so l use a natural colour because l like my lips, they are nice and full, and it makes me feel better.

Of course women 'do themselves up' if not to please men because there are standards of female beauty they wish to reach or are taught from a young age they need to reach. It would be naive to suggest otherwise.
I disagree with this view because I think it's dismissive of women, their thoughts, feelings and agency. I find it reductionist.

I wear it when I see my mum otherwise she tells me I look tired.

@Palmyra

Why do you ask OP, what's your view?

I was people watching, when I saw a particular woman with very bright noticeable lipstick. That's when I suddenly thought "In the 21 century, what's the actual point of lipstick, why enhance your mouth?", unlike eye makeup which accentuates your eye colour (I assume), why are you accentuating your mouth. What is that communicating? That got me to thinking about its origins. Hence the question.

That's not unreasonable when you put it like that (ie what's the point of lipstick) From your first post, it sounds like because it attracts men was the conclusion that you had come to.

I don't know, I doubt there is one conclusive answer. Social conditioning maybe? As far as I'm aware many species adorn themselves in some way to attract a mate. Or as a hierarchy thing possibly.
I wonder if we look to whoever we want to attract and do what we feel is necessary for them to find us attractive.
There is a lot of social conditioning around make up. Look at the magazines aimed at women and girls. Lots in those about make up. An average boy doesn't have those sort of magazines advertised towards him. Magazines aimed at men and boys are more about interests. Ones aimed at women and girls are usually 'lifestyle'. I'm not saying that this is right, but it is how it appears.
It's hard to avoid social conditioning. It's sometimes very subtle, but often it's not.

I started wearing eye-liner, mascara and lipstick every day in lockdown rather than only on special occasions to cheer myself up.

My husband was stuck in the house with me but as he usually sees me in my unadorned state it certainly wasn't for his benefit.

People of both sexes have always adorned themselves.

There are cultural norms for men and women that affect this at different points in time.

Men in the past wore rouge.

These conversations always focus on one point in time etc as if it's his it has always been.

It's just fashion. Nothing more nothing less.

Just remembered I went to see a friends band and some of the blokes on stage and in the audience had makeup.

In the 80s of course men wore lipstick like nobody's business.

It's only women who seem to get such massive dissection of this sort of thing. Shaving, clothes, makeup etc etc.

While loads of men do the male equivalents- fancy hair, aftershave, etc etc and no one says hmmm WHY???

I have a chronic illness and was mostly stuck at home even before the pandemic. Unless I am going through a bad patch and having a day in bed, I try to wear decent clothes, jewellery, and make-up, just for myself—no-one sees me except DH, and he prefers me unadorned. But it makes me feel like, OK now I am going to stop faffing around on Mumsnet & do some work instead (my own work, I don't work outside the home).

I have noticed that women who don't wear make-up tend to have naturally good skin. Have other people noticed this, or is it just me? Make-up can be a way of distracting from bad skin, not (just) covering it up, and bad skin is a real confidence-killer (I know, it probably shouldn't be). I am also very pale and if I didn't wear blusher people would tend to ask me whether I was feeling OK—you can imagine what a bummer that was, esp. as my skin is very, very reactive and would reflect every stress and strain in life.

OK, back to work...

Well I mean whatever you want to do obv.

Loads of women won't leave the house without makeup.

Habit/ ideas about 'getting ready' etc etc.

I really dislike these threads. They come up all the time on feminism. All they do is to make individual women feel got at. Why do women wear lipstick? Because they are human beings in a society where lipstick is a standard thing for women to wear. And it's associated with looking 'nice'.

This whole lipstick to look nice for men thing is so.. obviously a bit stirring.

In the past men wore rouge.
Do elderly women want to look hot for the boys when they put lippy on?

It's just social norms, fashion. The capitalist system that tells us we should buy this or that to be acceptable.

And in the end. The idea that adornment is something humans tend to do. And some like bright colours etc.

Maybe the question should be.

Why don't people who want to wear lipstick wear it when they feel like it irrespective of sex. And those who don't, not. And the female beauty standard is damaging.

On the bad skin thing it's probably the other way around. Women and girls with bad skin wear more make up as they want to try and cover it up.

Rather than the other way round.

The idea that make up causes bad skin leaves women and girls who feel unhappy with their skin and want to cover it. In a pretty impossible position.

I think people are often a bit disingenuous on these threads.

I absolute wear make up to make myself look 'socially acceptable.' Which includes to men, even though I'm married and most of the time at home don't wear make up. I don't want anyone thinking I look a horror if I can avoid it. I'm in my 50s so the first flush of youth is well behind me!

Without make up I feel fat and ugly and I'm very aware of my naked face when I'm out and about and not made up. When I wear make up I feel less this way.

I recognise the link between what is socially acceptable for women to look like in society's view and my own feelings of self worth. I also acknowledge that this isn't great, but it's definitely the reason I do it.

For example, I might try a different way of doing my eyeliner that is more "current" and in doing so I completely recognise that I am signalling that I'm not yet past it and aware of current trends. Which is in its own way broadcasting that I'm still ever so much au fait with fashion thank you very much ( although to be fair it's usually only women who notice).

It's complicated of course, but I would say that any make up is intrinsically linked to a feeling of self worth. Which is why we enjoy wearing lipstick even when there's no one else there because the 'cheering' factor is hard wired to feeling better about ourselves which in turn is linked to how we view ourselves which is almost always directed by how society wants us to look.

It's not helpful that women end up turning themselves inside out analysing it while men get to pretty much just rub the sleep out of their eyes and put on some deodorant.

I am signalling that I'm not yet past it and aware of current trends. Which is in its own way broadcasting that I'm still ever so much au fait with fashion thank you very much ( although to be fair it's usually only women who notice).

Great point - I've just bought a pair of wide-leg jeans for exactly the reasons you mention. None of the men of my acquaintance have even noticed, but two women have commented about how trendy they are. They also happen to be enormously comfy!

That's when I suddenly thought"In the 21 century, what's the actual point of lipstick, why enhance your mouth?"

@Palmyra, it's the 21st century, why does a woman have to explain anything, regarding her fashion choices, to a man?

I enjoy wearing it. Even at home, when I am not seeing anybody. Humans have always adorned themselves, and I like personal adornment. Bring back the days of the glam rockers and New Romantics when the guys were making themselves look fancy too, I thought that was wonderful.

I like makeup, although I haven't worn any for ages. For me, it's just a way of bringing a bit of colour and sparkle to myself and looking a bit different to how I do usually.

I've never really got on with lipstick though. I'm secretly a tiny bit jealous of people who can wear red lipstick and not look like a clown having an allergic reaction to something.

I don't ever really wear makeup unless it's part of a fancy dress costume or something. And I don't really find women in makeup attractive. I do however find men in eyeliner pretty attractive. I'm obviously a bit weird!

I have a few mates who spend a lot of time in the gym and like to wear clothing that shows off their figures. They say they're not doing it to impress men and it's 'for themselves', but I think the truth is that though they're not actively trying to attract men to date, they still like being seen as attractive, so in the sense are doing it for themselves to accomplish this feeling of confidence.

I mean, I don't understand why you'd want to show off your boobs/bum for any other reason. It's not like other women are going to be paying much attention, it's literally just men who will be gawping. If women do take notice it'll usually be to make a bitchy comment IME, they won't be staring at another women pert arse in admiration let's be honest.

I like to show off my muscular arms and shoulders because I love how I've made them look. But I don't actually think I do it for male attention as I'm not sure that men are that into muscular women.