Typical gaslighting of feminists: 'You are responsible for the invasion of Afghanistan!'

[Aparallaxia]

www.thenation.com/article/world/white-feminists-wanted-to-invade/

This to me sounds like a right-winger just wanted to find something else to blame feminists for. Bush, Cheney and their gang didn't need another justification for the invasion of Afghanistan. It was the invasion of Iraq that they needed to justify, in 2003. These particular 'white feminists' may have been rich and privileged, but millions of other women in the US fully supported bringing Afghan women out of the dark ages. If the US messed up the reform of the country, how is that our fault?

@TooBigForMyBoots imperialism was devastating for Africa. Was that Western values? When I say Western values I am talking about liberal democracy and individual freedoms such as freedom of speech.

That’s hardly the point though the past is past. Here’s the point if the west eg America and Europe loses global position and authority completely to China and Russia, do you expect the fate of poorer nations to be better?

Of course we shouldn’t be imposing our values everywhere but I’d say moral relativism is a greater danger. Where does it stop? Should we have stopped the Hutu’s killing the Tutsis? Are the Chinese government simply using their cultural values on Uighur Muslims? What about British girls forced into marriages or as discussed earlier FGM? To have no values and simply dismiss everything as cultural quickly leads to a very dark place.

Imperialism and colonialism were the "enlightened" Western values of the time. They still exist. The world's women should not be pawns in a USA and Europe vs China and Russia game. They have their own countries, societies, systems, beliefs, needs and voices. Those are the voices that feminists heed, not those of patriarchal governments.

Not being a moral absolutist doesn't mean a person has no values.

Are the Chinese government simply using their cultural values on Uighur Muslims?
This is a great example of what Absolute Morality can lead to.

Lobbying governments to pass laws is not as effective. Talk is cheap. A law is worth nothing if it isnt enforced. And where the law is enforced, women are the criminals.

yep - totally agree on that too - so many laws enacted to 'protect women and children' end up being used to criminalise women (and children).

Clearly, feminism was a fig leaf to help sell this war to the public. But, seriously, does anyone in their right mind believe any army would invade some other country to please feminists?!? Wars are about resources and geopolitical objectives, not about saving anyone from anything. I‘m flabberghasted time and again that some people still fall for that ‚let‘s save them by bombing them‘ shtick.

I don't remember anyone at the time believing the invasion was about anything other than oil and money and revenge for 911.

Western values devastated the continent of Africa.
Though in parts of Africa, girls & women can appeal to courts to prevent either themselves or their children being subjected to the brutality of FGM. Those courts were and still are, based on British systems of law

Though in parts of Africa, girls & women can appeal to courts to prevent either themselves or their children being subjected to the brutality of FGM.
What impact is that having on the rate of FGM?

Those courts were and still are, based on British systems of law.
In what way @Flaxmeadow?

What impact is that having on the rate of FGM?

Not enough but it means women and girls can get a court order to prevent FGM and they do. FGM is a crime in many African countries

In what way

From when British systems of law were in place, and then copied after a nation became independent from British rule

FGM is a crime in many African countries.
See my post above about the crime of FGM.

From when British systems of law were in place, and then copied after a nation became independent from British rule
FGM continued throughout British rule. Even when in control, Britain did not abolish FGM.

See my post above about the crime of FGM.

I can't find it

FGM continued throughout British rule. Even when in control, Britain did not abolish FGM.

I'm not sure about abolishing it but FGM would be classed as a crime under something like grevious bodily harm? Murder if the victim died

Why are people talking about FGM on a thread about Afghanistan?

Western values devastated the continent of Africa.

I personally don't subscribe to the North Korean way - of punishing family for crimes committed by a parent or grandparent. Something the family member has no control over or blame for. We can't keep warmongering because a very small minority of rich westerners were involved in imperialism. It wasn't just the West either. The Ottoman Empire was heavily into North Africa. For centuries rich people from all over the world have waged wars and involved imperialism. The majority population - the poor - had absolutely no say and very often suffered as much as the inhabitants of invaded countries.

We have to think of the present and not the past.

FGM only became a crime within the UK in 1985! And even then🙄

You seem to know little about FGM and the effects of colonialist Britain on women abroad @Flaxmeadow.

We can't keep warmongering because a very small minority of rich westerners were involved in imperialism.

The warmongering continues because our governments are still involved in imperialism @Tealightsandd.

I don't think colonialism (whichever regime or country of the many many involved over the centuries including Ottoman and British) has much to do with the treatment and rights of women and girls. What country or regime has treated women well? Worldwide, under many different regimes, women have suffered. Domestic violence and rape happens in every society. It's a global problem.

@TooBigForMyBoots

We can't keep warmongering because a very small minority of rich westerners were involved in imperialism.

The warmongering continues because our governments are still involved in imperialism @Tealightsandd.

Yes I know. Unfortunately governments and groups worldwide are involved. But we don't have to give it legitimacy by accepting fake 'justifications'.

Afghan feminism needs to use Islamist feminist ideaology which isn’t something white feminism can help with. For example women across the Middle East have used Shariah law to force changes to labour / education laws. Not sure if anyone remembers the lingerie protest when women across gulf countries staged a mass protest because they did not want to buy lingerie from men (at the time only men could legally work in certain shops / malls) and used the qu’ran to get what they want (female shop assistants). It’s why medicine, banking / financial services and teaching are still considered appropriate female professions for even in Saudi.

Until Afghanistan begins to do business with other Muslim countries who can then use money to stablise the region and influence internal policy changes, nothing will improve.

Talk is cheap. A law is worth nothing if it isnt enforced. And where the law is enforced, women are the criminals.

For @Flaxmeadow.

FGM only became a crime within the UK in 1985!

I know. My point was that women had protection under British law or a system of law based on it, GBH for example. If a rural Afghan kangaroo court amputated a woman's fingers for the 'crime' of wearing nail polish, then under British law, even in the 19th century, the perpetrators could be brought before a (British) court under British rule.

I didn't want to use the Sati/Suttee example, because it's not the only example

It's better if you do, but you do not necessarily have to have a specific law if injury is caused by FGM. Other laws can be used I suppose was my point

She [Rafia Zakaria] is far from dim

She has a way with USA academia word salad, helpful with book promotions in her home country no doubt, but she comes across as un-worldly and naive.

I don't remember anyone at the time believing the invasion was about anything other than oil and money and revenge for 911.

Quite. It's nonsense. It may have been a post hoc justification (and I remember thinking that was bullshit and cynical spin at the time) but it was not the reason. Women's plight was largely ignored, which anyone who had seen the C4 undercover documentary, Beneath the Veil, made by Saira Shah in about June 2001, would know. No one gave a fuck about women in Afghanistan, even largely western feminists. There was far more international outcry when they blew up the Bamiyan Buddhas.

And where the law is enforced, women are the criminals

And sometimes it's necessary for women who exploit or harm other women and girls systematically to be criminalised or otherwise hampered in these acts, to protect women as a sex class from oppression on the grounds of their sex, or particular groups of women (or other vulnerable or disadvantaged groups, obviously). Another example is women who procure women for modern slavery such as sex trafficking.

In this country we do have laws against FGM and modern slavery and yes they should be enforced.

@Hotcoffee10

Why are slavery and women’s rights a false equivalence? *@idk11* The status of women under the Taliban and in many countries is similar to slaves. In fact if you look at women’s rights through the ages slavery would be a good equivalence in many cases. Forced marriage with dowries paid, legalised rape within marriage, unable to hold property, unable to move around freely. I’m sure some women love their husbands

What is this mythical land you speak of? Are you that insecure that you need to fabricate a pretext? The Taliban have turned out not to be so bad after all. Sure, they are not chiming the white women's narrative but neither is she chiming theirs. You can't have it both ways. Shock and horror, they now impose segregation, so what? weren't you the ones rambling on about #metoo?