TRHR · 24/06/2021 10:37
Britney's testimony yesterday is harrowing. The lack of bodily autonomy, lack of control over money she earns, forced work, drugging, mandatory contraception. It's medieval. Can't help thinking that men wouldn't be subjected to this (although maybe that's my ignorance). I know conservatorships are a US thing, but is there anything similar in the UK? Is there a possibility that women here are under similar legal measures and no one is talking about it?
TRHR · 24/06/2021 10:38
Sorry just seen similar thread, will hop over there
QuentinBunbury · 24/06/2021 10:42
I don't know. I think people with serious mental illness can be sectioned and treated against their will, which is similar but maybe more time bound.
I know a couple of people with severe BPD and they definitely aren't capable of making safe decisions at times. So some of the stuff Britney is saying about being forced to take Lithium could be to do with refusing necessary treatment, which can be common. Then some treatments are toxic to foetuses so it might be that which means she's on contraception, not about preventing her having a baby.
I feel so sorry for her but also her family as these illnesses are cruel
TRHR · 24/06/2021 20:13
Yeah it's the fact that a period of poor mental health seems to have got her into an irretrievable situation? I think she literally wasn't allowed her iud removed on top of the lithium. Agree, all psychiatric illnesses are awful for all involved - you hope all interventions are in patient's best interest, but stuff like this can raise doubts.
NiceGerbil · 29/06/2021 00:35
I've been on a few threads about this.
I found her testimony compelling, from the heart (honest), and very upsetting.
On so many threads people are speculating about why this or that is probably the right thing to do.
13 years. 13 fucking years.
I won't repeat all I've said before but.
Her conservators fees were over s million dollars last year.
nettie434 · 29/06/2021 01:09
I too feel really sorry for Britney. I am definitely not an expert TRHR but I think it is unlikely there are women in a similar position here. The law is slightly different in Scotland but the key piece of legislation here is the Mental Capacity Act. The idea is that if a person wants one thing but health and social care professionals think they cannot make an informed choice, they do a capacity assessment.
We do have a system called deputyship which means a the deputy has to be consulted about decisions made on behalf of another person. A friend of mine is applying to be deputy for her son with a learning disability. It's expensive and complicated so it's not an everyday thing.
I would say that here the arrangements are mainly for people with conditions like dementia or a learning disability.
Another difference is that I believe there are firms in the US who act as conservators for people with dementia or other conditions where they need help managing their lives on a for profit basis.
I don't know if anyone remembers The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo but Lisbeth has a public guardian who she feels has let her down tremendously.
As others say, this has been going on for years and her fans have always been 'Free Britney'. I suspect their status as young women has meant their real concerns were dismissed.
NiceGerbil · 29/06/2021 01:14
Yes. Women have through history been quickly declared insane for doing very little. And of course used to be incarcerated for stepping out of line.
The threads on here show this persists.
Women on various boards trying to think of reasons to explain what's happened. Speculating. Brain injury. Bipolar. Coil can't be removed because this that and the other.
The automatic response from deep down is as ever to doubt the words, the testimony of women as being complete, accurate, trustworthy.
NiceGerbil · 29/06/2021 01:18
Lost custody of her children.
Her life timetabled.
No access to her own money.
Not allowed to choose her own contraception/ try for a baby.
Not allowed to marry.
Not allowed to go for a drive with her boyfriend of 3 years.
But fine to do Vegas stints and a world tour.
She is so strong. I'd be a mess if that was my life for 13 years. And which years. 26 to 39 I make it. A massive part of her youth, essentially.
NiceGerbil · 29/06/2021 01:25
The other thing is in every report I've seen they say when talking about why this happened.
Driving with a child on her lap (paparazzi all around, trying to get away is how I saw that at the time)
She had her head shaved (so fucking what)
If I wanted to control someone. Then massively restricting their freedom is a psychological disaster. Feeling not in control of your life is an anxiety trigger.
Drugging them obviously.
Do well and you can have... Something. A taste of freedom.
A massive amount of therapy. However many times a week being encouraged to look into yourself and understand why you are ill. That would make you ill.
She struggled with alcohol. And? How many celebs have had way worse addiction issues? And... Nothing like this.
Having her go to a doc where she could be photographed, rather than having then come to her. Having to run the gamut and stress of having to do that however many times s week. Rather than having them come to her, and talk where she feels safe and is not exposed to the press.
I'm amazed she's got through it really.
NiceGerbil · 29/06/2021 02:46
Said the press...
She told you that did she?
Or. Is it totally impossible that an attractive young woman with a sexy image would do that without a nefarious reason/ or it being a sign of insanity.
Maybe she just wanted to be left the fuck alone and thought if she didn't meet that sexy image any more that would reduce.
Maybe she just thought fuck you all you don't know who I am I'm my own person and I'll do what I want.
If they were checking her for drugs then they would have done so already. Or they could have quickly gone and got the hair from the hairdressers. Or. Hairbrushes. And if they were that interested (who are 'they'?) then they'd have been giving her blood tests. Or. Watching her. Or. Asking her friends. Or. Calling round at random times to see if she was fucked. Etc etc etc etc
And if she had taken drugs. For however long. Like you know. Loads of other child stars/ celebs. Why does she get all this and the others don't? Like erm. Robert Downey Jr. Charlie sheen... Countless others.
moonbedazzled · 29/06/2021 03:19
She was about to lose custody of her children because of her erratic behaviour. I don't think she had been diagnosed as bi-polar then, although she might have been done privately. So I guess 'they' would be the social workers. They wouldn't have access to any drugs she'd done, and rightly hearsay wouldn't, shouldn't, be taken as truth, so the way they check recent drug use, both then and now, is to take a hair sample. She had long hair so it would have showed for quite a while back. I mean anyone would shave their hair, wouldn't they? She's not stupid and she had a lot of advisers/hangers-on that would have suggested it. She wasn't under a conservatorship then.
And yes, RDJ and Sheen did loads of drugs, tons more then Spears I would say. And RDJ went to prison so he did get punished. Sheen - who knows what the hell happened to him. Too many women covering for him, I suspect. But in both their cases, their children were looked after by their wives. Spears was looking after her children herself and her behaviour was growing increasingly erratic.
moonbedazzled · 29/06/2021 03:37
Her drug use is not supposition. Her erratic behaviour is not supposition. Her bipolar is not supposition. Her losing/surrendering custody is not supposition. Every day it was another incident. I remember it all well. It reminds me a bit of Amy Winehouse. All her denials and that everything was ok when it was clear to everyone that it wasn't. Then after her death it came out that everything that had been reported and denied was actually true. Same with Princess Diana.
I read a bit of what she said but I haven't heard what Jamie Spears or the judge has to say. Can't judge anything fairly until you hear both sides. There's no doubt, though, that Jamie Spears taking control of her affairs saved her life back then. I bet Mitch Winehouse wishes he could have done the same. If the conservatorship went out of control, there were judges overseeing all of that as well. No one knows the full truth yet, and everyone will have their own version of it.
NiceGerbil · 29/06/2021 10:38
Princess Diana was a drug addict? I had no idea.
And BS is nothing like Amy W what an odd comparison.
I just realised that those 3 women do all definitely have something in common which was being incessantly hounded by the media and having all sorts of things (true? untrue? who knows?) written about them.
Two of them are dead and I think there's an during argument that the media helped them on their way.
So not sure what that means about whatever you're getting at.
Her testimony stated that she was sent for appts at a place where it was easy for paps to get pictures. And they refused to let the doc come to her home.
Protecting her you say? Hmmmm.
Do you know her? You seem to know an awful lot about her. And are confident it's accurate. And that yes being under house arrest for THIRTEEN years is warranted and she needs some more.
StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 29/06/2021 14:27
I agree with NiceGerbil.
Britney's sister has now spoken very clearly on her sister. It reads as being very genuine. And her sister actually knows what is going on. I don't believe for a second she would have spoken as she has, if she felt that the conservatorship was necessary.
Jamie Lynn Spears: I'm so proud of Britney for using her voice www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-57649648
moonbedazzled · 29/06/2021 18:00
As far as I know Diana wasn't a drug addict, no. But what I meant by including her was that there were reports in the newspapers for years that certain events were happening, eg throwing herself down the stairs, bulimia etc. She denied it. Then the book was published that said it was all true but she denied having anything to do with the book, even through rumours persisted she did. Of course, we now know she all but wrote the book. So although reports may only be rumours, they often prove to be subsequently true.
I compared BS to AW because they both were on similar trajectories that were destroying their lives but both maintaining that their lives were fine. Actions taken in BS's life saved her life; poor AW died but if someone had been able to step in to make decisions about her life, maybe she could have been saved. As far as I know AW wasn't bi-polar so it would be a matter of getting her off drugs and trying to remove certain influences from her life so I don't think her father would have needed to control her life for 13 years. (Not saying Jamie Spears needed to control his daughter's life for 13 yrs either)
I definitely agree that all those three women were hounded by the press in a shocking way. The accusations against BS's management team was they actually set her up to be ambushed by the press to try to raise interest in her and jumpstart her stalled career. Her mgt obviously denied that. I will say though that it's possible to live a private life if you want to. Rhianna, Katy Perry, Taylor Swift, Adele, all live private lives with very little press harassment. We only really know anything about them when they release photos or press releases.
The conservator ship saved BS's life. I stand by that. She was got onto medication for her illness, stabilized, and was kept away from drugs. Now, what happened over the next years I don't know. It may be that her father, lawyers, acccountants, doctors and judges all colluded to rob her and control her. She thinks that, I'm sure others might have a different version. The truth is probably somewhere in between. However, she has now stated how she feels about the conservatorship and it will be up to the judge to decide what changes need to be carried out.
No, I don't know her. But all of this is documented. Her manager, Sam Lufti, confirmed that she had shaved her head to avoid drug testing. There were several court cases between the conservatorship and Lufti. Her drug taking was in court documents. All of this was on the telly and in the media regularly so I should think lots of people know the same.
She wasn't actually under house arrest, though. I'm not on her social media or anything but even I have seen pictures of her out and about. I did hear her detail some of the abuses she claims happens and they were awful. Eg, People watching her getting undressed every night is shocking. But I don't know if that was in the early days when she threatened suicide or is still happening. If it happened more than a short time, it's dreadful. I heard that she wants to have another baby and she is being prevented. She should totally be allowed to have another baby. But are there reasons why the conservatorship prevented this, eg medication, or the rumours that swirl about her boyfriend? I personally don't see any reason why these things couldn't have been sorted out and her live a freer life.
I used those women as examples because they came to mind. Amanda Byrnes is similar, not under a conservatorship but her mother has financial control, at least she did up to last year but that might have changed this year. I do think there were a couple of cases where mother's stepped in over the son's lives but I think it was much more low key. But like you say, it's interesting that the most publicity is given to women. Another piece of hounding as it were.
I saw Jamie Lee Spears vlog. She was actually defending herself from Britney supporters who claimed that she was living off Britney's money and did not support her sister. She was quite clear that she loved and supported her sister and did not have to make public statements to do so. Quite right. She said that if ending the conservatorship made her happy, she'd support that. She didn't comment that the conservatorship was bad nor did she criticise her father. That might have been a politic decision so as not to get dragged into a family war, or make such a war public; or it might be that she could see benefits for her sister in the conservatorship. Whatever, I thought she came across in a very sincere and sensible way, advocating for her sister's rights. Good for her.
I don't have any skin in the game. I like BS's music but m not a particular fan of BS, I know nothing about her father. I'm just saying that things are often more complicated than they seem. They're rarely black and white but full of different shades of grey. I need to hear all testimony or the judgement of those who have heard all testimony before I can judge. But if we agree on nothing else, I know that we agree on the fact that BS is entitled to live a happy and free life, and hope that the court comes to a judgement to facilitate that.
TRHR · 29/06/2021 18:53
Although interventions at the time may have been appropriate, 13 years seems like a very long time for this not to have been properly reviewed, especially for a fairly young person ? I agree with the comments that fans may have been dismissed because she and her fan base are young women and stereotyped as a bit hysterical?
I also think that even a mental health crisis shouldn't result in such a loss of liberty unless absolutely extreme. E.g. conditions like bipolar csn be managed without threat of losing child custody? It's such a mess.
moonbedazzled · 29/06/2021 19:38
@TRHR The conservatorship has been reviewed regularly over the last 13 years. Conservators have to make annual reports to the judge overseeing the wardship. It's not like a conservatorship gets set up and that's it. They have to do financial reports, ie where money has been spent, incl how much the conservators got paid. And they have to do health reports, which include doctors' reports. The conservatorship can be terminated by the court at any time. The ward, ie BS, can apply to have it terminated as she has done here. BS also has her own court-appointed counsel and can get them to make representations on her behalf to the court. However, whether her counsel did a good job on her behalf or whether they were influenced by the conservator is one of the many disputed matters.
Why would any judge take what the fans have to say into consideration? Who cares what age or sex they are? It's none of their business. And they don't know anything. The court makes decisions based on the facts put before them not on a baying crowd outside with placards, or online hashtag campaigns.
She was in an absolute mental crisis. She was an addict, threatening suicide, and was bipolar. She lost custody of her children because of her dangerous behaviours towards them. If a woman posted on here about their husband's mental health putting their children in danger, wouldn't people on here say the man should lose custody? Its exactly the same for her. There's no doubt that she loves her children and they love her back, but like everyone in a similar situation, you have to work your way back into your children's lives. First she had supervised visitation, followed by unsupervised visitation, followed by overnight visitation and now has shared custody. I believe she is now at 30:70 custody but the children are mid teens so I guess they make their own arrangements in reality.
I'm not against BS. I'm not a great music fan but she always seems nice in interviews and I've never heard a bad word said against her. I want her to have a happy and healthy life, as I would anyone. But before we judge and denigrate people, we should know all the facts, or trust the court, which does know all the facts, will act appropriately. Hopefully for Brittany that will mean she can have the future she believes will make her the happiest.
NiceGerbil · 29/06/2021 19:59
I can't agree with you on anything.
I asked why you only gave female examples. You responded with another female example.
'The accusations against BS's management team was they actually set her up to be ambushed by the press to try to raise interest in her and jumpstart her stalled career. Her mgt obviously denied that. I will say though that it's possible to live a private life if you want to. Rhianna, Katy Perry, Taylor Swift, Adele, all live private lives with very little press harassment'
Have you listened to her testimony?
I don't think you have. Or if you did you were so biased you didn't want to listen to what they were saying.
Because the reason she gave for them having her go to a place where she could be photographed, rather than have the doc come to her.
Is totally different to what you say.
The testimony is widely available.
Listen to it, then come back.
Or tell me why you are saying that she said xyz. When she didn't.
Incidentally I am from the area Amy grew up in. I know people who knew her. She's not a, dunno. Concept to me.
Lady di, BS and Amy. And the woman you mentioned I've never heard of. Why are you drawing direct equivalences?
They are in different countries, different ages, different upbringings, different challenges, different personalities, different educations, different upbringings, different different different.
Women are people. In all the complexity people have.
The only thing they have in common is being in the public eye. And being hounded and hounded by the press.
To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.