Free Britney

[TRHR]

Britney's testimony yesterday is harrowing. The lack of bodily autonomy, lack of control over money she earns, forced work, drugging, mandatory contraception. It's medieval. Can't help thinking that men wouldn't be subjected to this (although maybe that's my ignorance). I know conservatorships are a US thing, but is there anything similar in the UK? Is there a possibility that women here are under similar legal measures and no one is talking about it?

How can BS have a private life when she is timetabled full time and has to do as she is told.

Listen to the interview.

You don't know her. Nor do I.

Listen to her words. Properly.

Well she clearly doesn't need this conservaship. I hope it's removed and she can get on with her life. Poor women.

What I think is outrageous is that she is forced to pay the conservators' legal fees when they go to court to argue against her.

The main issue that I find contradictory is that on the one hand her lack of mental capacity was judged as being so affected to prevent her exercising basic bodily autonomy whereas on the other, her conservators judge her well enough to be forced to work under conservatorship and abide by contractual arrangements that they have entered into on her behalf - so she was well enough to be a judge on US X-factor but unable to participate in treatment decisions.

@Lunde you have put across what I meant so eloquently
Thank you 😊

@namcybotwinbloom

Well she clearly doesn't need this conservaship. I hope it's removed and she can get on with her life. Poor women.

You don't know her.

She did Vegas stints and a world tour while she was apparently too ill to function on her own.

26- 39.

13 years totally controlled.

Most people with MH issues get treated and helped to keep going.

They don't get all control removed from their whole lives for 13 years.

That's a life sentence in the UK pretty much.

You get less for rape. Often much less.

Have you listened to her testimony?

I can't believe that women are supporting this.

Is it because you don't know her? She's been timetabled and had no control over what she does, no access to her own money.

From 26-39. Thirteen years. Years which are massively important. A good part of her life, when she was young, when people grow and change and travel and just... Everything.

In what world is that ok.

I know I sound like I support the conservatorship and the conservators. I really don't. I know if my father was in charge of my affairs he would definitely put my well-being as his only concern. I'd like to think Jamie Spears was the same but I don't know that. He might be a complete shit.

@namcybotwinbloom The conservators are meant to act as guardians and advisors over work issues and they oversee financial and legal issues, much like a manager and agent. She has enough money not to have to work. However, it is thought that people with bipolar (like most people with mental health issues) need routine, and work is routine, as it's beneficial for their mental health. Of course the intensity of what BS was asked to do is on another level. It was what she was accustomed to doing but I do seem to remember at the time her complaining that she wasn't seeing her children enough whilst she was on tours. I think that was part of the reason she went for a residency. Overall, I can't see that being made to work that hard against your will is anything but abuse, though.

You might be right that the conservatorship should come to an end. That's what the court will decide when it has all the facts.

@StartingGrid She lost custody because of her erratic and endangering behaviour. 100% Nothing to do with her father. The incident with her father and her son happened in 2019 when her son was 13. After that incident, her custody was increased to 30%.

@NiceGerbil I thought you'd agree with me on the fact that she deserves to live a happy and healthy life, but if you don't, fair enough.

I actually agreed with your point that women are hounded more than men. Amanda Byrnes is an actress that became mentally in and accidentally set her dog on fire. At which point her mother stepped in. I think the pressure these women are under must be immense. How do any of them survive it?

What have I been biased over? When I referred to her mgt team I was referring to Sam Lufti in 2007, not the present conservators. Lufti had been hired by BS to kickstart her career and the Spear family alleged that he had conspired with journalists in order to raise her profile. He denied it. It's all in court documents. No secrets or rumours.

I haven't quoted anything she's said in her recent testimony other than she said people watched her get undressed, which I do think is awful.

Again, I don't support any abuse of her. I don't automatically support the conservators but I haven't heard their side so I can't outright condemn them. How can you make a fair judgement unless you listen to both sides of the argument?

@Lunde I agree. How galling must it be to pay for people who you believe are abusing you to go to court to request to carry on abusing you. But I guess it's the conservatorship that is a party in the action and not the individual conservators. And the only income the conservatorship has is BS's. Hopefully, if she wins, and if she wants to, she might be able to sue individuals to get her money back.

No I don't know her.

My friend is a social worker and we have talked through this.

Pros and cons to all of it.

But to me, it seems like she has been put to work to get on with it regardless.

I think end this conservaship and let her have her own support that she chooses to manage the rest of her life.

There are lots of people in my area with lives more fucked up than hers that are left/are managing so this whole thing with bs is unnecessary.

'I know if my father was in charge of my affairs he would definitely put my well-being as his only concern. I'd like to think Jamie Spears was the same but I don't know that'

Why on earth would you imagine that her dad is anything like yours?

That's, weird.

She paid over s million dollars to her conservators last year.

Her dad's response to her testimony was that he loves her and he misses her.

???

So he doesn't see her? And yet he controls her every move?

Why are you making such massive assumptions?

I haven't read the rest yet.

Have you listened to her testimony?

I expect you say above, I'll read now

I haven't commented on the present situation because I've not read everything but obviously I've heard reports on the news and I haven't heard the other side. I've only referred to things that happened in the past because I do know those things happened and I do know what was quoted in court. I think that's fair.

I understand not everyone's relationship was like my and my father's. I realise I was very lucky. Is it wrong to hope that other parents and children have a positive relationship. I understand at the moment she thinks he's a dreadful person. If what she says is true, her opinion is completely understandable. But I haven't heard his testimony. I haven't heard the doctors' testimony, or the psychiatrists', or the lawyers' etc. I've heard rumours about things but as they are unsubstantiated, I haven't repeated them.

I don't know what the outcome will be. If Jamie Spears is held to have behaved as she claims, I would hope there is a suitable punishment for him. But I can't pre-judge. Whatever, I hope the future is good for Britney.

I can’t believe that in this day and age.. in the modern world.. that they have gotten away with any of this.. it’s modern day slavery and every part of it disgusting.. all under the disguise of doing what is best for her well being. It’s complete and utter madness what she has been put through.

Moon??

Confused.

Why are you talking about her dad being punished? Where did that come from? I don't think anyone has suggested that. And the focus of the thread is Brittany S.

I'm interested into where that came from really. Bit leftfield.

Have you listened to her testimony? You should. Then I'd be interested to hear if that changes anything in your view.

'However, it is thought that people with bipolar (like most people with mental health issues) need routine, and work is routine, as it's beneficial for their mental health'

'Of course the intensity of what BS was asked to do is on another level. It was what she was accustomed to doing '

Like this.

In her testimony she states that she has worked since she was young and she is good at what she does. Good for her. Her sense of self hasn't been destroyed. Incredible given the circs. She's obviously incredibly strong.

And she's right of course, what with being a superstar.

The idea that Vegas stints and a world tour would be a useful routine for a person with serious mental health problems doesn't sound quite right to me.

'If what she says is true, her opinion is completely understandable'

Can I ask why you don't believe her?

You think the timetabling is not true?
You think the refusal to remove her coil is not true?
You think that her anger at having to attend a clinic which is easy for paps to take pics of people going in and out, rather than being treated at home, is unwarranted?

Of course you can have an opinion at the moment. Even though you haven't heard all the evidence. You are not judge or jury. You're in a different country!

And tbh seems to me that you have a pretty firm opinion.

Incidentally as this is in feminism topic I will say some other things.

I saw a documentary about Whitney Houston a while after she died. Someone said about the drugs. That from time to time she would knock it on the head. And when she was more sober. She would look around and say. Who are all these people? Why are they here? What are their jobs? And she'd look at the accounts and say what are these things? Why am I paying this person so much money? Who are they? Etc etc etc

So it was important to those around her to find a time, find a weak spot, find something where she would be inclined to get back on it, and then make sure she stayed that way.

Medical treatment in the USA is private esp for a star. It will be very very expensive.

There are things that are.. less regulated.

I can think of two massive stars off the top of my head who have been heavily medicated by their personal doctor. Given addictive substances. Making them feel reliant on their doctor. And dying young because of those substances.

Just an example. I don't think this is the case with BS. My point is though that the doctors involved with people like this make s fortune. And are therefore financially incentivised to keep treating them.

I believe her. Genuinely.

The way she has been treated is appalling.
It is outrageous that she is considered so incapable as to not being allowed to go out in her boyfriend's car but forced to go on tour. She isn't allowed to change a dance move yet has to perform.
This whole setup sounds criminal.

I notice Kanye West was never controlled in this way.

So in the case of BS.

I only know that she cut all her hair off (so what) and tried to drive with a baby on her lap (while being surrounded by photographers).

I mean I don't follow this stuff in detail but those things don't seem to mean anything really.

I looked up the bipolar thing and she said she was told she had that. She said that she was shy and that when certain things were going on she adopted s different persona, like s totally different person.

Again so what? Loads of entertainers do that.

She is worth millions.

She is a person who has been a star since very young. And you know it's more normal for them to go off the rails than not- actors footballers etc. All that attention, loads of money, stressful work, lots of free time.

Soooo.

The possibility that her doctors (presumably hired by her dad) have every motivation to keep her needing treatment. You're still not well. The things she lives with. Hours of therapy multiple times s week. No access to money. No freedom. Timetabled life. You're not well this is for your own good. Paying for the privilege. Etc etc etc...

She's been under house arrest essentially for thirteen years.

I'm surprised she's not seriously depressed/ given up etc. She is very very strong.

In the USA and the UK there is s long history of declaring women insane and locking them up/ drugging them etc.

No one knows the truth, on here.

I find it depressing though that on s female dominated site, the threads I've seen are full of speculation, stuff read in the press (who knows if true) and essentially anything they can think of so justify her treatment.

And no thought whatsoever that what's happening means loads of people get s massive guaranteed income for as long as she's got no choice.

If her father is found responsible for using his position to exert unreasonable control over her just to torture her, as she has suggested, then I definitely think he deserves to be punished. That is out and out abuse. I think Birtany said she'd like him to be punished too.

I thought the thread was about freeing BS from her conservatorship. As her father is one of the conservators, I don't see how he can be separated out of the thread.

When I said 'it was what she was accustomed to doing', what I meant was, this was the life she knew, this was her skill set so working so physically hard didn't come as a shock. But I was clear that being made to work that hard against your will is abuse. So basically if she wanted to tour, great. If she didn't, shouldn't be made to.

I also said that the Vegas residency was so she could see her children more consistently; not that it was a good thing if she didn't want to do it.

Can I ask why you don't believe her? I don't believe she is lying. Of course she might be, but I don't think she is. But that doesn't mean to say that everything she said is the truth. It might be what she believes happened from her perspective. It might be that her father said, you need to do this to see your sons because it was the only way he could get her to look after herself. Of course, it might be he is just an abusive so-and-so. As for her being treated at a clinic instead of home, who knows why that would happen? I don't even know what she had done. Maybe doctors thought treatment was better in a medical setting, maybe they needed certain equipment, maybe they needed different specialties to see her? Or maybe they put her on display. But walking in and out of a building is not a big display really, is it? And what would they achieve by that? That she's under a doctor. She's bipolar, I think we pretty much know she's under a doctor. On the other hand they might have another nefarious reason but I can't think what.

As for judging without the facts... I remember when Madeleine McCann was abducted, the newspapers and general public all pointed at an English ex-pat guy and said he did it. I remember Joanna Yates murder and everyone accused her landlord. Both of them were perfectly innocent and I was pleased that I had said to people round me, it's unfair to accuse them because there is no evidence and it can ruin their lives. If they'd done it, plenty of time for them to have fingers pointed after conviction.I feel exactly the same about this.

You're wrong to say I've made my mind up. I can understand that it seems like it because I have defended the conservatorship being set up, but I really do like to wait until I have heard everyone's side. I won't read about the trial until I have the judgement and I can see all evidence presented. If it is proved that the conservators acted either beyond their powers or abused their powers, I totally support sanctions against them. If the conservators are found to have acted reasonably but the conservatorship is terminated, I will be very happy for Britney that she has proved she is healthy again and can go on and live her life as she sees fit. There might be another permutation. But whatever, I hope whatever is decided sill enable her to live her best life.

Just one last thing, about Amy Winehouse. I don't have any connection to her. I think she was an extremely talented human being and seemed a very nice person from all accounts. I'm not sure what a dunno Concept is but it doesn't sound complimentary. I don't believe I said anything derogatory or personal about her, only that her life was on an unfavourable trajectory. What happened to her was very sad and I feel extremely sorry for her family and the fact that they could not help her no matter how hard they tried.

@NiceGerbil

I find it depressing though that on s female dominated site, the threads I've seen are full of speculation,

Does this refer to me? I have been very clear not to have reported rumours. I do know a few but I haven't repeated them. The things in my earlier post you highlighted as speculation has all been produced in evidence in court: drugs, hair, endangerment, suicide threats.

Putting you child on your knee would not get your child taken off you. A warning maybe. There were other problems.

You hypothesise that her doctor were medicating her for profit. Absolutely that might happen, definitely does happen (see Michael Jackson) - speculation of course, which you disapprove of - but a judge does oversee everything that happens. Not to say you can't get one over on a judge, but judges have seen it all. If they were concerned, they would get someone else in to check out what was happening. But read the general health threads on here - lots of complaints about doctors and medication so I would think difficult to prove either way. But if it's proved, they should be struck off. End of.

One last thing. Re Whitney Houston. Definitely agree with you that the team around people like her try to keep them on drugs so they can control them and their affairs. In Whitney's case wasn't that mainly her husband? It's awful and horribly predictable.

@moonbedazzled

If her father is found responsible for using his position to exert unreasonable control over her just to torture her, as she has suggested, then I definitely think he deserves to be punished. That is out and out abuse. I think Birtany said she'd like him to be punished too.

I thought the thread was about freeing BS from her conservatorship. As her father is one of the conservators, I don't see how he can be separated out of the thread.

When I said 'it was what she was accustomed to doing', what I meant was, this was the life she knew, this was her skill set so working so physically hard didn't come as a shock. But I was clear that being made to work that hard against your will is abuse. So basically if she wanted to tour, great. If she didn't, shouldn't be made to.

I also said that the Vegas residency was so she could see her children more consistently; not that it was a good thing if she didn't want to do it.

Can I ask why you don't believe her? I don't believe she is lying. Of course she might be, but I don't think she is. But that doesn't mean to say that everything she said is the truth. It might be what she believes happened from her perspective. It might be that her father said, you need to do this to see your sons because it was the only way he could get her to look after herself. Of course, it might be he is just an abusive so-and-so. As for her being treated at a clinic instead of home, who knows why that would happen? I don't even know what she had done. Maybe doctors thought treatment was better in a medical setting, maybe they needed certain equipment, maybe they needed different specialties to see her? Or maybe they put her on display. But walking in and out of a building is not a big display really, is it? And what would they achieve by that? That she's under a doctor. She's bipolar, I think we pretty much know she's under a doctor. On the other hand they might have another nefarious reason but I can't think what.

As for judging without the facts... I remember when Madeleine McCann was abducted, the newspapers and general public all pointed at an English ex-pat guy and said he did it. I remember Joanna Yates murder and everyone accused her landlord. Both of them were perfectly innocent and I was pleased that I had said to people round me, it's unfair to accuse them because there is no evidence and it can ruin their lives. If they'd done it, plenty of time for them to have fingers pointed after conviction.I feel exactly the same about this.

You're wrong to say I've made my mind up. I can understand that it seems like it because I have defended the conservatorship being set up, but I really do like to wait until I have heard everyone's side. I won't read about the trial until I have the judgement and I can see all evidence presented. If it is proved that the conservators acted either beyond their powers or abused their powers, I totally support sanctions against them. If the conservators are found to have acted reasonably but the conservatorship is terminated, I will be very happy for Britney that she has proved she is healthy again and can go on and live her life as she sees fit. There might be another permutation. But whatever, I hope whatever is decided sill enable her to live her best life.

Just one last thing, about Amy Winehouse. I don't have any connection to her. I think she was an extremely talented human being and seemed a very nice person from all accounts. I'm not sure what a dunno Concept is but it doesn't sound complimentary. I don't believe I said anything derogatory or personal about her, only that her life was on an unfavourable trajectory. What happened to her was very sad and I feel extremely sorry for her family and the fact that they could not help her no matter how hard they tried.

Gawd where to even start?!!!

In brief.

I really don't think having to give evidence in a trial against her father/ and the other conservators, with all the press attention etc, would be something beneficial for anyone. You say you think she said she wanted him punished? You've listened to her testimony haven't you? She just wants to be free to live her life. You understand that when someone in an extreme position and they say they are angry and want someone punished, that's not the same as in the bold cold light of day after having got free starting legal proceedings.. I'm sure you understand that.

'this was the life she knew, this was her skill set so working so physically hard didn't come as a shock'

You said working could well be to give her routine. Is a routine where you are literally in the spotlight all the time, with loads of people watching you. And you have to get it right. And it's bed really late, sleep till when. When touring loads of time traveling. New places. Meeting loads of people. Again being in the spotlight then onto the next city.

When you say routine is recommended for people with certain mental health conditions, I'm surprised you see that kind of life as what I'd imagine it meant. The sort of grounding, this time up, go to place, do same thing, go home routine.

'I don't believe she is lying. Of course she might be, but I don't think she is. But that doesn't mean to say that everything she said is the truth. It might be what she believes happened from her perspective'

I think that quote speaks for itself.

God there's so much to object to in that post!

You have listened to what she said, haven't you?

I've asked you a few times I'm no not sure you answered. Apologies if you did.

It's just that

'I don't even know what she had done. Maybe doctors thought treatment was better in a medical setting, maybe they needed certain equipment, maybe they needed different specialties to see her? Or maybe they put her on display. But walking in and out of a building is not a big display really, is it? And what would they achieve by that? '

She went into this when she spoke.

You obviously are very interested in this s otherwise you wouldn't be posting at length and you seem to know s lot about what's happened over the years.

So why haven't you listened to what she said?

You brought up Diana and Amy W out of the blue. I asked why you were giving female examples.

Then you mentioned another woman I've never heard of.

Now you bring in two really well known (female!!!) cases where there's a murder and either a murder/ abduction of s child.

Why?

You could have said. The media behave in s terrible way and have form for demonising people unfairly.

And you use these awful crimes and the appalling behaviour of the UK press to essentially say it's not fair to... Form an opinion? About something in the USA? Chat about it on mumsnet?

Your phrasing is again strange. It's not s trial. No one is on trial. It's s hearing to decide if the conservatorship should continue or not and if so in what form.