Sport

[Tibtom]

Once girls reach their teens they disproportionately drop sport. How can we encourage physical fitness in girls, especially in light of lack of changing facilities that respect a teenage girls acute need for privacy and dignity, or the lack of fair competition including any chance of success at higher leves?

mobile.twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1405799318980894721

I think there is a real danger if males identifying as women get more common. The thread above documents how people have performed before and after transition. Women will be wiped out from competitive sports.

This will create fewer role models for biological girls and means fewer girls will start and maintain sports.

Thinking back to my own school days, the things that put me off sport/fitness were 1) team games when I wasn’t any good so always in the position of letting the team down, and 2) miserable weather. So I think my recommendation would be for non-competitive indoor options. Maybe dancing and yoga.

@334bu

*Are there any women's sports left?*

Strictly speaking no , as most sport associations follow IOC rules regarding inclusion of male athletes who identify as women in the female category.

So only men's sports and mixed sex sports. How can we get female sports back or get men out of women's sports?

Once girls reach their teens they disproportionately drop sport. How can we encourage physical fitness in girls, especially in light of lack of changing facilities that respect a teenage girls acute need for privacy and dignity, or the lack of fair competition including any chance of success at higher levels?

Victoria Hood gave an excellent talk at a Woman's Place meeting specifically on the issue of girls dropping out in relation to cycling. It's well worth a watch for anyone who hasn't seen it...

"Victoria Hood is a cyclist and team manager. Victoria competed as a cyclist on both road and track. She now runs an elite women’s cycling team, with a development pathway for youth and junior girls. In recent years, she’s been British national masters track champion in two disciplines. She spoke at #WPUKFairPlay in London on 10 July 2019."

I absolutely loved (participating in) sports at school, we had quite a wider range from the sound of it though - netball, hockey, volleyball, rounders, lacrosse, tennis, swimming, athletics plus indoor school gym equipment (horse etc).
I did go to a single sex school though so it seems, from these other comments, as though that might have played a big part in it. We also didn't have showers (now I'm wondering if I stunk, but we'd all have been the same!)

I only stopped because in the sixth form, it wasn't compulsory and so the lessons weren't slotted into my timetable and I could only do ones that coincided with my free lessons, which wasn't as many as I've had liked

My DDs school (state grammar) has an inordinate number of girls who represent their county, and in two cases Great Britain, in their chosen sport. Including: Rowing, Gymnastics, Netball, Hockey, Athletics (both track and field), Tennis, Swimming and, one I’d not previously been aware of, Artistic Roller Dance.
It’s a girls’ school. I don’t think that is a coincidence.
Of course, lots of them would have started out in their chosen sport before they got to secondary, but not all of them. And the school is well known to be very supportive of those individuals, and working around their commitments to training and competing, so some would have been drawn to the school for that reason. But the school places importance on Sport in a way that only one other (that I can think of), mixed sex state school, in the area does. New sporting facilities, including an excellent changing and showering block (that despite having boys in the sixth form, remains single sex), and forging an alliance with providers of girls’ team football locally (allowing them to use the facilities free of charge) keeps girls in sport. The sporting cohort largely represent the school in those sports that the school can offer (which is all of the above except Rowing, Swimming and Roller Dance). And ALL girls who want a chance to play, get to play, unlike at the local independent schools where you’re ‘invited’ to Card Making class if you don’t make the A or B team. In fact, the importance placed on how beneficial sport is to girls’, has led to teams from our school being so good that they are no longer invited to compete against the local independent schools - who have over the last few years declared they will just stick to their own leagues - no secret they did not like being beaten by a state school in netball and hockey . I feel the environment of a girls only school has really positively impacted on girls feeling able to continue with their sport .

fair competition is a big element for my teen. They already feel they are not 'good enough' and when there are quicker, stronger and better coached males now playing in the girl's teams, it does have a negative effect. Of course it does. I have no idea why any person who cares about young women in sport thought it wouldn't.

PE was basically just totally humiliating from start to finish when I was at school. Communal changing rooms was the first issue, followed by stupid PE outfits seemingly designed to embarrass and reveal as much as possible. Then having to troop along past classrooms of boys leering and shouting, then being shouted at by unpleasant women with whistles.

This was exactly as it was at my school too - a mixed-sex grammar. I was one of the top athletes in my region and I still found it mostly unenjoyable, due to the enforced communal naked showering, the tiny athletics pants in the school playground with everyone watching, the having to declare your period for swimming, the insistence that all PE was about competitive sport. When it should about all the benefits of exercise, and giving girls the confidence to enjoy using their bodies for what they are capable of and what they enjoy.

I'd say it's because of sex - periods and what not

and gender - yanno, not wanting to mess up your hair as it will be such a bloody faff to sort it out

but i dunno if we're allowed to talk about sex and gender here

@DentonsFringeArnottsWaistcoat that sounds like a great environment for girls

Don't shoot me down, and I know this is feminism, but sport is dropped by both sexes during the teenage years, I will look for the study but it found that both sexes dropped by a similar amount, although boys started from higher participation.

This is something that needs to be looked at for all our children, it really matters to me. Why does it become that you have to do well to participate, why do we have to focus on the most boring sports in PE, why is it often cost prohibited?

There's also an issue about participation outside of school before they get to the teen years. My very sporty DD managed to get a spot at the local athletics club aged 9 but before that there was nothing except gymnastics and dance. Netball didn't start until they were aged 10 although there are now local clubs that take them from younger. Compared to football and rugby starting from toddler age. And yes she could have done them but she wasn't really interested and certainly the lower primary age clubs in those sports are very boy focused.

[quote YellowFish12]@DentonsFringeArnottsWaistcoat that sounds like a great environment for girls[/quote]
It is. I’m biased but I bloody love our school. They also place immense importance on Art, Textiles, Drama, Dance, MFL and Music - my younger DD is hoping to be accepted in to a conservatoire next year - she hadn’t even picked up an instrument til she joined in year 7. Whilst I think the girls only environment is beneficial I also recognise that our school is very unusual in the state sector. I do wonder if it is because they are selective, they - ironically - don’t have to focus solely on the academic subjects to the extent that other state schools do (though they excel there too, their STEM provision is excellent). The way schools are judged means time effort and money have to be focused more on the academic subjects rather than the creative. They are very open about their ethos of placing as much importance on sport and creative subjects as the academic. But I do recognise that may be because the girls in their school are going to achieve, academically, anyway, so they can afford to. But the way state schools are judged, in performance terms, means lots of them can’t take this attitude even if they wanted to. Not every child can be academic, there are other options. Education in general, in the U.K., needs an overhaul.

Girls are socislised out of bring competitive. Its the whole "be kind, accommodate others, don't put yourself forward but wait to be called on". All thst is incompatible with sport, where the focus is "try to win, beat your opponent, call for the ball, be assertive"

Also, to do your best at sport you need to get red and hot and sweaty. Sadly, girls sre socialised to care about their appearance far more thsn boys.

On top of that, very few girls see their mothers playing sport, and many will hear from their mums about how bad PE lessons are, so that will sadly inform their opinions

This will also not help persuading women to participate in elite sport.

DD's school did fairly well up until yr10. Mixed school but single sex PE, girls only taught by women PE teachers. There was space on a team for everyone to compete if they wanted. But come yr10 only students taking PE GCSE could be in the teams, DD went from playing on the football, hockey and rounders teams, to doing a just compulsory lesson a week. Most of the girls hated swimming as you needed a note from your parent if you were on your period.
There were hardly any non competitive sports, although the school has a gym, only a select few can use it.
The PE kit is rank, only available in limited sizes, so girls have to squeeze themselves into it. They have to tuck their tops into the skin tight leggings making it even worse. The hoodie is expensive, but not compulsory so many girls end up freezing in a polo shirt outside in winter.

Agree about PE kits and sports kit in general being part of the issue.

Getting shin pads and skins to fit a teenage girl is ridiculously challenging.

My girl gets comments for wearing the “boys” kit at school. She chose it because it’s literally warmer, has pockets, and isn’t skin tight.

My girl gets comments for wearing the “boys” kit at school. She chose it because it’s literally warmer, has pockets, and isn’t skin tight.

Sensible girl but why do we never get pockets?

I did PE training focused on getting girls to be active a few years ago. One of the talks was by a secondary expert (I'm primary so I went because I thought they might have useful ideas.
The school in question had zero participation from girls.
The school did something amazing.
They asked the girls what they wanted.
Turns out the girls wern't motivated by team sports and enforced pe. They wanted to be able to work out in an all female enviroment, in a way they could continue after school.
So the school built them a gym for that purpose. Their results were brilliant. All the girls used their time slots (I believe it was GCSE upwards so they were issued free periods to access it)
I went away and asked our girls what they wanted. I implemented it. It was reverted back as soon as I went on maternity leave.
I think recognising that girls have their own needs and wants when it comes to being active is the first step.

It wasn't that long ago I was in secondary school and PE was mostly single sex, I hated it when we did a class altogether. Does single sex PE still happen, would this start causing "inclusivity" issues? If unisex PE was to become a thing I'd worry figures would decline rapidly.

I liked PE but was extremely self conscious, so if I felt I wasn't very good at something I put little effort in. I was always jealous of the sporty girls, I loved playing sport in the "lower achievers" group.

“ Sensible girl but why do we never get pockets?”

The handbag industrial complex forbids it. The bastards.

PE kits.

Jessica Ennis-Hill may have the body confidence to wear knickers and a crop top before the world, but the average teenage girl doesn't, and she's not being given the massive carrot of a gold medal and Olympic prize money every time she has to wear PE kit for PE, either.

If the aim is to increase female participation in physical exercise and increase fitness for health reasons, I think we need to move away from seeing competitive sport a “real” sport. It just isn’t what the majority of women do who get into sport. Things like Parkrun, swimming, gym classes and martial arts have pretty high female participation and they have significant non-competitive ways of fully engaging.

I think what is really needed is an increase in social aspects of sports - so perhaps sports classes at school with long enough to get changed comfortably afterwards and then sit around watching a sports performance while drinking milk/water eating fruit and commenting on whats happening on screen in a constructive way - geared towards the girls having a laugh together. More clubs with time built in for friendships to blossom (travel time on a mini-bus can be good for this). Clubs/teams doing things together that aren’t the sport where people can talk. And to keep women once they’ve had children, a lot more crèche facilities at a reasonable price at leisure centres that allow women to stay on in the cafe with friends after.

Boys and men use sports as a way to socialise - they go to the park and hang out while they play footie/skate/etc. They go to the pub after the five-a-side friendly or their 20km bike ride. Changing our culture so that sport is something women do with their friends and aren’t afraid to take time out of their family life in order to do with their friends would go a long way to making it something they will keep up more in life. I do think some honest education in school about the way their bodies and fitness levels will change and how to get into fitness once they’re unfit would be good knowledge for everyone to leave school with.

If we want to increase female participation in competitive sport I think the actions that need to be taken would be very different - especially increased funding for girls’ teams from a younger age, better coaching & facilities, greater lauding of female athletes in school and the media. But I also think it will take more resources to encourage girls’ participation than it would to encourage boys because there are virtually no sports that women would beat men in (there are a few endurance ones) and that is always going to lead to disparaging comparisons from some that will put some women off. Obviously there are a lot of women who relish competitive sport (I certainly did) but it really doesn’t seem to resonate with women the way it does with boys and that might not be a socialisation thing.

This thread is obviously not really about the question. But I'm going to pretend it is, because it's actually a good question.

I agree with some points made, such as periods etc. Potentially the issue with competitive sport possibly becoming mixed sex in future is an issue for the very tiny number of elite athletes, but isn't the answer to the question of why girls drop sport-for-pleasure. As a teenager that would not have featured in my thought process of why I wanted to give up hockey/shinty/badminton.

This may be my issue only, but the reason I stopped playing team sports was that I've always disliked competition. I played for fun. The older I got the more I struggled to find groups with this ethos. At uni I tried two sports, but both were so competitive, their only focus was winning. There was no fun. So I gave up team sports. I am still active, but it tends to be walking/hiking/cycling/swimming etc. I just do them for fun. No more team sports. If someone started a 'fun team sports' club in my area I'd absolutely go. I should probably do it myself!

Is it possible that girls/women are statistically less competitive by nature? Many obviously are, but if lots aren't, wouldn't it be useful to also have sports clubs/PE sessions which focus on the joy of sport rather than being the best?