What's your take on why many women and girls lost interest in feminism over the decades?

[nestoftables]

Just that...I've read a few things talking about why feminism became an unfashionable word etc.

Having just finished reading 'Material Girls' which has a brief summary of second wave and third wave feminism towards the end, I am interested in different perspectives on what happened, based on different experiences and different reading on this. Thanks!

[SmokedDuck]

I wouldn't say that Meghan Murphy was a keyboard warrior.

And what makes you think that people who have said that they felt that feminism has sometimes tended to engage in oppression hierarchies have somehow absorbed this from the internet or from dinner parties?

The taking of marxist types of thinking about oppression and transferring them from economic class to other contexts like sex or race is to a large extent what CT is about.

I sometimes wonder if people even really want to understand why many women don't feel feminism doesn't speak to them, often it seems like they'd just call the wrong kind of women handmaidens so they can feel comfortable about not listening to them.

[MaBroon21]

The radical feminists posting on this forum have put me off completely.

[lazylinguist]

Feminism just means equality for women. It makes zero sense to decide to take no interest in equality for your own sex simply on the grounds that there are some feminists on one particular internet forum who have views you don't agree with.

[NewYearNewTwatName]

I can only echo what lots of posters have already said, growing up been told I can do and be anything and that it was pretty much of no need for it anymore and feminist came with a perception of of been hairy angry man haters.

I did still sort of feel feminist when I came across Obvious sexism and would call it out, but also I think the fact that my mother who hadn't been a bra burning feminist but a sympathiser to the movement had swung to the sexiest stereotyping of men, like 'all men are useless' sort of troupe, which set my rebellious teen self on a track of distancing myself from such shallow thinking (how ironic of me 😂)

I even wrote a very long post years ago on here absolutely trashing rad feminism and MN feminists on a thread about "why lots lots of women aren't feminists" I was very vicious and felt I defended my corner well.
But I also resented the feminist posters, and found them infuriating.

low and be hold I couldn't stop myself occasionally looking at feminist chat, to to snort to myself. sometimes I'd post, I usually then would flounce and block FWR board.

I kept coming back to look though, like scab you can't help but pick.

I see so many things now, and being a mother and working in a male dominated industry (which I prided myself on, because if I could do it, then why couldn't anyone else) Has brought home the inequalities, and the wider aspects. TRAs trying to remove the importance of biology and turn it into a dirty word, has managed to cement my new feminist awakening, and has frightened me at the realisation that the rights won by previous generations are not and never safe, they need protecting they need people watching out and willing to put their livelihoods and reputation on the line, just to keep what we have.

I don't agree with everyone and all the opinions on this board, but I'm happy to hear them.

[NonnyMouse1337]

@MaBroon21

The radical feminists posting on this forum have put me off completely.

Oh come on, I'm sure you're made of sterner stuff. The rad fems here are pretty tame.

[Beamur]

Feminism is and should be, a broad movement.
But I don't really get how women can reject it as a concept as being for 'other women' it does rather miss the point.
If I come across a refusenik in the wild, I'll cheerfully point out it's not just the vote, but without women pressing for change, you wouldn't have the right to own property, have custody of children, education, contraception, etc and whilst I concede we live in a time and place that's pretty decent to be a woman in, if you think we have equality you would be mistaken.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Among younger women, as far as I can see it's part complacency, and part that uni 'feminist' societies are irrelevant to many of them. Most students don't have time for student politicking.

[AllWashedOut]

I'd grown up, like many others on this thread, with the idea that we'd won. I spent a decade in academia and even argued to dismantle the women's support group (unfair to exclude men, they struggle too etc). As I approached my 30s I felt uncomfortable with the distinct message that as a woman in a marriage my roles in life were housework and feeding my man (by so-called liberal academicians!). This equality myth exploded into the truth after having kids. Still I wouldn't have called myself a feminist. I came searching for answers on MN, which at that time had plenty of posts about how men hated women, PIV sex was rape and how men and women were exactly the same in every way other than who pushed out the baby. I couldn't join this with what I was experiencing. Since then, the genderist movement has grown, which has had the fortunate consequence of forcing 'my type' of feminist out the closet. Long live feminism!

[MaBroon21]

Oh come on, I'm sure you're made of sterner stuff. The rad fems here are pretty tame

Jeezo 🤣.

Honestly, I’ve learned so much and at 63 I now consider myself a feminist. However, I do read things here posted by the more extreme members that leave me thinking bloody hell.

[SmokedDuck]

@Beamur

Feminism is and should be, a broad movement.
But I don't really get how women can reject it as a concept as being for 'other women' it does rather miss the point.
If I come across a refusenik in the wild, I'll cheerfully point out it's not just the vote, but without women pressing for change, you wouldn't have the right to own property, have custody of children, education, contraception, etc and whilst I concede we live in a time and place that's pretty decent to be a woman in, if you think we have equality you would be mistaken.

I think though that many women would say that these things don't mean that they have to label themselves as feminists.

It's all well and good to say that feminism is just about wanting some kind of equality, but there are women on the thread who describe being rejected by other feminists for thinking the wrong things or behaving the wrong way - not at just FWR but multiple times, in real life.

And in fact several posters in this discussion have implied strongly that feminists can't be anything other than left wing. That's a common refrain not only here - where we constantly have people bemoaning that feminism is becoming associated with (gasp!) conservative women with the wrong economic views - but out in the world and in feminist activist groups.

Why should all women feel so attached to that label when feminists make it clear to them they don't meet the qualifications and need to change their views? Most will realise quite quickly that they can still believe in justice for women, or write to their MP, or work with other women in their communities to achieve things, all without needing to apply a label or trying to justify themselves to those who tell them that people who believe what they do are not welcome in their feminist group.

[stumbledin]

I think there is a huge difference between media feminism ie the sort of cliched ideas that get published and then taken up and become a "fact", and feminism as in women in their own lives or through campaigns and volunteering.

It is just a shame that so many seem to have accepted that media feminism is feminism.

And of course there is a whole other area of feminism, ie that proposed by universities, which has very little to do with women's every day lives. Let alone when it gets subverted into "gender" studies so that you cant even talk about women's discrimination because it means having to accept that women are biological females.

[LolaSmiles]

smokedduck
Feminism is a broad church, generally concerned with the liberation of women from systemic oppression (unless you're talking to modern day social media feminists, in which case it's all about choice and how empowering it is for women to get their kit off, whilst telling women who question the patriarchy they need to #bekind). Within that there will be women of a range of political, economic, social, and religious views, and they'll agree on some issues but not others.

My views are feminist and they will remain feminist regardless of whether I agree or disagree with another woman on various topics. It always seems quite wishy washy to me when I see posts on here to the effect of I believe in equality, but not the sort of equality that those nasty feminists say. I can't be a feminist because someone who called themselves a feminist said something I didn't like or I'm a feminist but a cool feminist, I'm not like those other women who trouble themselves with systemic oppression .

[Beamur]

I don't think that the left wing own feminism. Really really don't think it at the moment!
Feminism is also what you do and how you think, even if you reject the label. The label is name for it but it's still there whether you name it or not.
There are academic feminists, media feminists, career feminists (etc etc,) and there are those of us, most of us probably, just out there, being women, helping other women and pushing against stereotypes.

[HeadNorth]

Left wing men act like they own feminism, then they can exclude women who don't match their ideals - by their standards Angela Merkel, Hilary Rodham Clinton, Kamala Harris, Theresa May etc etc would not be the right sort of feminist, as they have centre right politics. Personally, I think feminism transcends party politics as issues such as caring responsibilities, male violence, pension poverty effect all women.

I think the longer you navigate life as a woman the more you realise the importance of feminism for women of all classes and political beliefs.

[SmokedDuck]

@Beamur

I don't think that the left wing own feminism. Really really don't think it at the moment!
Feminism is also what you do and how you think, even if you reject the label. The label is name for it but it's still there whether you name it or not.
There are academic feminists, media feminists, career feminists (etc etc,) and there are those of us, most of us probably, just out there, being women, helping other women and pushing against stereotypes.

I don't think they do either. But a lot of them sure think they do.

It's really very disingenuous in my mind for people to suggest that's only some kind of online thing, and I'm not sure why that keeps getting repeated when people say that isn't what they are talking about.

Absolutely there are groups of women working for certain ends who don't bother with that stuff, they are interested in doing something about a problem - in my experience though it's fairly common for women in those groups to not call themselves feminists, or not describe their group as a feminist group. They are more likely to call it something like a women's group or focus on the specific issue.

But "feminist" groups - like a pp said, second wave feminism could be extremely exclusive and lots of more conservative women have felt literally pushed out of feminism over the years, it's been made clear the contribution of women like them wasn't wanted, they didn't fit in, they shouldn't try and contribute because they didn't believe the right thing about some subject.

The question in the OP and which people always ask is why do so many women not choose the label feminist. Well why should they when their experience is that they are treated as not good enough?

It really reminds me of what people and especially women complain bout with the LP - the feel like they are being told they own the LP, or feminism, their allegiance and numbers, just so long as they sit quietly and don't try and bring up their real views.

The don't get broad church allegiance because they don't present themselves as broad church. Maybe they shouldn't, but then the question is kind of "why doesn't everyone agree with me?"

[NonnyMouse1337]

@MaBroon21

Oh come on, I'm sure you're made of sterner stuff. The rad fems here are pretty tame

Jeezo 🤣.

Honestly, I’ve learned so much and at 63 I now consider myself a feminist. However, I do read things here posted by the more extreme members that leave me thinking bloody hell.

Haha sorry I couldn't help the cheeky comment

I like the straight talking nature of the discussions on this board (well boards now). What sort of stuff do you find to be extreme?

[Beamur]

I think my point is that it doesn't really matter if you call yourself a feminist or not. What matters is what you do.
It's not as if feminism is a political party or a club, but I guess it matters as far as the lack of coherence makes it harder to seem 'united' - but then there isn't one way to 'woman'

[SmokedDuck]

@Beamur

I think my point is that it doesn't really matter if you call yourself a feminist or not. What matters is what you do.
It's not as if feminism is a political party or a club, but I guess it matters as far as the lack of coherence makes it harder to seem 'united' - but then there isn't one way to 'woman'

Yes, I think that's true.

I suppose the way I understand the question, part of it is about why so many women, who often do feel invested in helping women or women's issues, at the same time don't feel the word feminist really describes them.

[Beamur]

There's been some good examples on this thread as to why - stereotypes, feeling unwelcome, being told off, being right wing..

[Angelica789]

It’s simply the sheer power of the patriarchy.

Women have been convinced that they will be fulfilled by attracting men, having babies and keeping house. That they don’t need economic power and independence as long as they marry well and keep their face, body, home and children in order.

By the time they realise the lies they’ve been fed they’re middle aged and furious.

[Whistfulwisteria]

@Angelica789

It’s simply the sheer power of the patriarchy.

Women have been convinced that they will be fulfilled by attracting men, having babies and keeping house. That they don’t need economic power and independence as long as they marry well and keep their face, body, home and children in order.

By the time they realise the lies they’ve been fed they’re middle aged and furious.

The young people in my family don't feel like this. They talk about polyamory and child free lives and learning how to live well single.

As a 70s feminist I get this completely.

By 1979 I knew that I was going to have to grab hold of life and make mine my own having grown up seeing the impact of "settling down" on women.

It's weird to believe you have to spend your life attached to another person. And definitely not a way to live as a liberated woman. I co parented with a man till the kids were in their teens. That's enough out of a life to hand over to nurturing. Honestly, I learned all this in the 70s, why are people still talking about the patriarchy as if it's a surprise in 2021?

[Angelica789]

It’s not a surprise to older women. I think younger women aren’t yet aware of how pervasive it’s power is.

[Whistfulwisteria]

I think it's the instinct to breed that probably overwhelms women more than men. Having grown up poor with too many irritating siblings and too much in the world available to do impossible with a wailing infant I had absolutely no interest in domesticity. Maybe we make it all look too Instagram now when actually it's damned hard and serious and irreversible.

[Akire]

I grew up in the 80s you looked at your mum and your grans life and thought you had it made. You could have it all.. well more acutely you could do it all. Modern woman was strong enough to take it. Without the internet and SM you had no idea how the other half lived and how conditioned you really were.

[Beamur]

@Angelica789

It’s not a surprise to older women. I think younger women aren’t yet aware of how pervasive it’s power is.

Yes. It's taken me a good few decades of living to really see it.
Curiously, I'm not sure how much most men 'see' it either, despite benefitting from it. Hence the indignation you see from a lot of men and all the NAMALTing. Invisible Women has an interesting chapter on the falsehood of meritocracy and how men don't realise how the system is gamed for them to succeed.