What's your take on why many women and girls lost interest in feminism over the decades?

[nestoftables]

Just that...I've read a few things talking about why feminism became an unfashionable word etc.

Having just finished reading 'Material Girls' which has a brief summary of second wave and third wave feminism towards the end, I am interested in different perspectives on what happened, based on different experiences and different reading on this. Thanks!

And on the life choices nobody every really talks the influence of the Beatnik generation who if anybody challenged accepted norms it was them. And following on from them was the whole rebellious 60s hippy left generation. And in fact it was the entrenched misogyny in both of these supposedly anti establishment movements that led to the creation of women's liberation.

The misogyny of " the free love" exponents is very much echoed in the people promoting porn, prostitution as " sex work" and queer theory.
All so called progressive ideas that result in the sexual exploitation of women.

The shorts under skirts makes me wonder if bloomers and petticoats will be making a comeback as part of primary school uniform.

The representation of feminism when I was growing up was very much “hairy smelly lesbians” and not in a complimentary way.

Luckily for me I find hairy lesbians very appealing, so it didn’t put me off at all!

I think that representation has shifted now.

Just to say that I think this thread shows how really stupid the @MNHQ decision to split the feminist chat to not have any discussion on sex and gender, and have created a new board for sex and gender which this thread it totally about sex and gender.

I wonder if they have actually read the thread.

Or are we meant to feel like we have got a gold star for having the priviledge of remaining of feminist chat as one of the good girls?!

Its hilarious.

Stumbledin, you’re making an ass of yourself.

Lots of us are thrilled to have a space that isn’t full of GC posters making everything about GC views.

So, as politely as possible, mnhq have made their decision. Feel free to take it up directly with them, but please don’t keep jumping into threads making your displeasure felt over and over again.

@Floisme

And by 'tired of it' I mean tired of not being taken seriously because I happen to believe the way we dress can be a fabulous way to express ourselves. Tired of the assumption that I'm being a sucker. And a little bit that this probably wouldn't keep happening to me if only I'd got into quilting instead.

And now I'm walking away from this thread for the time being. Not flouncing - I'll be back - but I've put up with this attitude for 40-odd years and, like I say, I get tired of it sometimes.

I've belonged (still belong) to countless women's groups and I can't think of a single occasion when clothes have been mentioned — and certainly not in a dogmatic way. But it's true that liberal feminism (which in my book isn't feminism at all) coincided with the late-80s and 90s Girl Power and lipstick lesbians stuff, which was highly commercial and involved a lot of (literally) buying-in.

It's hard to be a self-aware person who loves clothes and yet also understands that fashion is just a relentless commercial machine that produces a terrifying amount of waste while also exploiting some of the most vulnerable women in the world — those who make the garments in foreign sweatshops. But walking away from women's groups just because someone says something about your clothing? This is just a new way of disapproving of feminists and excusing yourself from getting involved, isn't it?

I'm sure you have a Plumo or Toast boiler suit you could wear to women's groups. Or dungarees?

I don't think women have lost interest as such because , while feminism theory has only been of interest to those with the time and means to devote themselves to it, the rest have been doing all sorts of things at grassroots level to make life better for themselves and their sisters. The Dagenham women wouldn't have seen themselves as feminists and yet they spearheaded the equal pay movement. The carers in Glasgow fighting in 2021 for equal pay would probably not consider themselves feminists. The women fighting for pensions wouldn't all consider themselves feminists.
What , however, would put them right off feminism, are some of the so called progressive ideas of today's new feminists. They would certainly not see prostitution as anything other than the exploitation of women for men's benefit that it is. They would certainly not see as progressive the limiting of women's rights to safe spaces when vulnerable. They would be horrified to see these being pushed as feminism as they know the women harmed by this exploitation. They live beside them, their children go to the same schools, they may not call themselves feminists but they know the patriarchy when it raises its head.

2019 not 2021. Sorry

I don’t think most women understand that we have an economy that begrudgingly tolerates the fact that women menstruate, gestate, and lactate instead of one that is designed with the needs of women workers in mind.

They probably didn’t have mothers or grandmothers who talked to them about the very real discrimination women faced. Things like not being able to open bank accounts or get a credit card. Being openly paid less. Having a serious degree housed in the department of “home economics”
Simply because of her sex. Being required to wear dresses and gloves to class. These things happened to women still alive today. Heck I’m middle aged and I still had a job in my teens that required hosiery which gave me chronic yeast infections.

They don’t understand the economic impact of childrearing, even if women prioritize career as much as possible. They think equality means splitting bills 50:50 instead of recognizing that equality would really mean partners financially compensating women for having children so the economic impact is shared.

Basically, somewhere along the way women got fed a glossy lie that they were equal and lots of them believed it.

I'm only 60 — it's not really that old. When I bought my first property in 1985 my dad had to stand as guarantor for me, because despite having saved a 10% deposit and having six months' mortgage payments in savings I was considered a poor risk because I didn't have a husband. I can remember the bank manager asking me how I'd cope if I lost my job and I can remember asking him how he'd pay his mortgage if he lost his job. That didn't go down well...

I think feminism as a movement has always been niche - I don't perceive it as any less popular as it has never enjoyed widespread popularity. I do think a new generation has been radicalised around Sarah Everard and male violence - there often needs to be a glaring symbol of inequality for younger women to realise the struggle is far from over.

Another area gaining prominance is the menopause, its impacts, and the fact it has been a dirty secret for years. For me, the menopause is very much a feminist issue and the fact that high profile women are speaking out about its impacts and employers are being forced to consider their policies shows feminism continues to be relevant to women throughout their lives.

It is a cradle to grave movement and there will be times women step back and out (the white hot years of career building/child rearing for example) but there should always be a space to step back in. The last thing feminism should be is exclusive or purist - or hung up on labels. It does not matter if a woman doesn't identify herself as a feminist if her actions advance the cause.

But walking away from women's groups just because someone says something about your clothing?
Well clearly I didn't walk away for long enough. What a patronising thing to say.

I originally walked away many years ago because I was constantly patronised and made to feel unwelcome.

I continue to walk away (and then coming back because this stuff is too important), not because people say things about my clothes but because I get fed up of not being taken seriously because I like clothes.

I don't even dress in a particularly feminine way - not that that should make any difference.

Pisses me off.

Having DC has opened my eyes. Mumsnet has opened my eyes. I don't know how to explain all this to younger women who will see the surface as I did.

If I had remained childless, I don't know that I would've grasped the issues. It's certainly unlikely I would've joined MN.

Same here. Almost all my views about any kinds of issues women face have been changed or entirely created by reading MN, largely because I had been privileged not to have been a victim of many of them myself.

And by 'tired of it' I mean tired of not being taken seriously because I happen to believe the way we dress can be a fabulous way to express ourselves.Tired of the assumption that I'm being a sucker. And a little bit hmm that this probably wouldn't keep happening to me if only I'd got into quilting instead.

Yes, I totally get that. The realisations I came to from being on MN had made me so cross and indignant at (among many other things) the expectations of how women should look and the effort we should put into our appearance, that for a while I forgot that we can acknowledge that, raise awareness of it, but still choose to enjoy looking nice. I'm definitely (age 49) just emerging from quite a lengthy self-imposed 'don't care what I look like' phase which I suddenly realised was actually doing nothing for me or for feminism.

MotherOffCod - you do realise that everything I have posted has been about sex and gender. Get a grip. And if you dont then you have to ask why mumsnet thinks you need to be protected in some artificial bubble. This thread is being used as an example of how stupid the artificial division is. And the arrogance of you thinking you can tell someone where they can and cannot post. And I am hardly jumping in to this thread as I have made a number of contributions. You are the only one make as ass of yourself as it appear you dont understand what is being discussed.

I wonder if it is seen as political (which it is) and it follows the general decline in interest in politics.

I have just noticed that this post is still on 'feminism chat' whereas most others I see on the app are renamed under 'sex and gender debate'. Including one I started a while back about why it feels like things are getting worse for women, so I'm not sure why that one is 'sex and gender debate' (wasn't about trans stuff, just broad musings) and this one isn't...

@AryaStarkWolf

It's definitely been made in to a dirty word over the last 10/15 years. Man haters, bitter, unattractive. It scares younger women especially off the notion ............great plan eh?

To be fair, it was like this when I was at uni many moons ago.

@stumbledin I agree with you, we are all products of the age we grew up in.

I think the main difference for young women growing up today is that the cool girl feminism is relentlessly reinforced on social media, at universities, on films, music videos, pretty much all cultural outlets. What with being kind and no debate and absolute abuse if they put their head above the parapet it's no wonder many young women buy into it.

@stumbledin Misogyny is the ultimate shapeshifter, isn't it? Never goes away, it just constantly changes its outward form.

Unfortunately the " cool girl feminism" is actively taking away her rights. The right in sport to compete against other women. The right to safe single sex spaces.The right to have correct sex disaggregated data. The right to challenge discrimination she faces because of her sex. ..............and do it goes on

Misogyny is the ultimate shapeshifter, isn't it? Never goes away, it just constantly changes its outward form.
You've hit the nail on the head here. At the moment misogyny has convinced a substantial number of women that doing all things previously accepted as being to serve the patriarchy is empowering and not oppression. It's a misogynist dream to have an army of women telling other women they need to be empowered by getting their kit off and accepting secualised clothing for children. It's patriarchy''s dream to have women silencing other women with silly "#bekind" responses.

The patriarchy is all too confident that creating a cool male-needs-centric, individualistic, liberal feminism to attack other views of feminism means women spend more time attacking each other and not enough time challenging the systems that keep us all in our place.

@334bu

Unfortunately the " cool girl feminism" is actively taking away her rights. The right in sport to compete against other women. The right to safe single sex spaces.The right to have correct sex disaggregated data. The right to challenge discrimination she faces because of her sex. ..............and do it goes on

Completely.

I was watching a Gail Dines video on YouTube. She was saying something along the lines of lib-fem and radfem should not be seen as a generational divide but as an ideological one. I like that attitude as it's optimistic.

@Shedbuilder

RadandMad is right, the second wave did deal with a lot of the obvious sexism in society. True feminism does mean looking at the dark side of misogyny and sexism still woven through every aspect of our lives. Once you've seen it, you can't forget or ignore and so it's easier for straight women, in particular, to ignore it. I've heard many women talk about how becoming a feminist ruined their lives by opening their eyes.

One of the big steps in the decline was the loss of Women's Studies departments. They became Gender Studies. That was when the rot set in and Liberal Feminism (male-focused feminism) crept in. We need to initiate proper women's studies again.

Here is a question though - what was it that allowed this to happen?

Because for the most part, I don't think this was some sort of attack from the outside, I think women's studies became gender studies because some of the ways in which feminism was conceptualising women and women's issues.

I'm inclined to think this also relates to the problem feminism has had in dealing with motherhood. Because as many women as there are who feel that it was only after they became mothers that they understood how women's position really is different, there are women who found made the same discovery but also feminism seemed to be dismissive, even overtly hostile, to their feelings around motherhood.

And both seem to me to stem from a view which says the sexed body differences between men and women are minor and can be overcome, if there is goodwill, with some small social tweaks, and all the rest about mothers and such is just socialised gender roles. If that's true then it really s gender roles that are the main problem, not our bodies.

I can't see this all usefully going forward until there is some real clarity about what led to these problems.

@midgemagneto

I watched a program about possibly the rise of feminism in America and I would say it's always been a divisive subject with many many women never being feminist

So the question first is

Is feminism less popular than it was at some particular time

The Benjamin Boyce interview with Julie Bindel was interesting as she explained the differences between the rise of US feminism and feminism in the U.K. there are some subtle differences.

Now of course the meld of ideas from the US to here could be changing how feminism is seen, especially among different communities.

A current pupil posted on The thread about St. Paul's and described a peer's attitude about abortion after rape that seemed more influenced by common wasp US ideas. (Certainly clueless about impacts of trauma and poverty.)

And both seem to me to stem from a view which says the sexed body differences between men and women are minor and can be overcome, if there is goodwill, with some small social tweaks, and all the rest about mothers and such is just socialised gender roles. If that's true then it really s gender roles that are the main problem, not our bodies.

Yes the idea of motherhood being a gendered role comes from the unwillingness of the more extreme feminists to acknowledge the impact that our physical bodies have in women's daily life. Motherhood blows this out of the water. Pregnancy and birth physically affect our ability to function in the world and that does not even include breastfeeding.
For all those who say being pregnant is not an illness and women for millenia have been giving birth in the fields and going straight back to work, are totally ignoring the millions of women who died at the side of the field and the millions of others who never recovered from the trauma and died at a later date.
Real feminism takes into account the impact our physical bodies have on us and doesn't try to deny it as many of the so called progressive liberal feminists do.

Childbearing is not an illness, nor is menstruation, nor menopause.

Feminism that tries to deny the above have a massive impact on women is still missing the point.

The whole women give birth at the side of the field and then get back to work sounds like something that would only happen in slavery or perhaps the modern day USA which has no paid maternity leave.

Cultures where women are valued more usually have special ways of caring for women during childbirth including 6 weeks of female relatives cooking, cleaning and caring for older children while the mother who has just given birth rests and recuperates and gets breastfeeding established. In fact even some cultures which are not particularly good for women in other ways have these traditions.

I used to reject feminism when I thought it was all about denying that there are differences between men and women and denigrating motherhood.