What's your take on why many women and girls lost interest in feminism over the decades?

[nestoftables]

Just that...I've read a few things talking about why feminism became an unfashionable word etc.

Having just finished reading 'Material Girls' which has a brief summary of second wave and third wave feminism towards the end, I am interested in different perspectives on what happened, based on different experiences and different reading on this. Thanks!

@Floisme

and how fashion fools women into spending far more than they need to. See this is exactly why even now, I don't get involved in any real life women's groups and why I still walk away from here occasionally. The disapproval I encountered in the 70s is still there.

For what it's worth, I know perfectly well that I spend more on clothes than I need to. I also spend far more on books than I need to, but no-one ever tells me I'm being fooled into doing that.

I agree. It’s exhausting to be someone—who is fully sentient and able—to be told how to spend her own money, and what’s allowed and why.

Being feminist doesn’t mean having the same life or political views or opinions.

I thoroughly reject the idea that I am somehow not a feminist (working for the sex-based rights of women, equality, an end to male violence, not being seen as the second sex, etc) simply because I care about the way I look and enjoy fashion & makeup.

I’m not doing this for anyone but myself. I have not internalised misogyny. Not by a long shot.

See, what I don't understand, is why it isn't possible for you to think "oh, well I know that doesn't apply to me, so this isn't a personal dig or criticism of me". Has anyone said that liking fashion means you are not a feminist? People are discussing this in general, looking at what society markets to women as necessary or advisable to fit in with current societal norms.

As far as I can see, people have been very clear that liking make-up and liking fashion is not something to criticise any individual for. What people are critiquing is the situation where it is mainly women who are targeting with these messages by society. When I was in my 20s I was very interested in fashion, read Vogue religiously and was interested in it as a form of art. That doesn't stop me from also analysing the issues around fashion/make-up/etc and women in our male dominated society.

When I was in my 20s I was very interested in fashion, read Vogue religiously and was interested in it as a form of art. That doesn't stop me from also analysing the issues around fashion/make-up/etc and women in our male dominated society.
Well said.
I like clothes and care about how I look.
I also think that the fashion and beauty industries spend a huge amount of time and money pushing a particular view of womanhood and women's looks that seems to conveniently align with dominant ideas of what what find sexually attractive.

I also accept that as a woman who has been raised and socialised in a patriarchal and misogynistic society some of my choices will be informed by many of those values that have been drip fed from birth.

Choices aren't made in a vacuum. Some feminists acknowledge this. Others promote you do you hun, individualistic, liberal feminism where so-called cool empowered women push the patriarchy's agenda whilst kidding themselves that they're not part of the same socialisation shit that the rest of us are.

perhaps the modern day USA which has no paid maternity leave.

No legally required paid maternity leave. It’s at the discretion of the employer. Oh, and most new mothers do not in fact give birth and go straight back to the fields.

I am a feminist and I am GC, but one of the things that has turned me away from feminism, historically, is being told I’m not a “real” feminist or that I’m doing it wrong. It happens on FWR quite often.

It’s thoroughly off-putting.

People disagreeing with you or pointing holes in arguments (whether rightly or wrongly) isn't the same as being told you're not a real feminist or that you're not a feminist.

Even so, if someone I thought was a fool and who held beliefs I had no respect for told me I wasn't a real feminist or not being a feminist in the correct way, it would be water off a ducks back to me. Feminism is core to my world view, the belief that women and girls deserve better in this world is not something that could be shaken by some external commentator.

I think feminism is having a resurgence. Certainly through the Ladette 90s and early 2000s we vocal feminists were few and far between. It was seen as unneeded - we were throwbacks to bra-burning second wavers, and were bitter man-hating harpies.

The past 10 years has seen so much more mainstream discussion of feminism that it's been very encouraging. I think Mumsnet has been part of that for many.

I’m wondering if feminism is something you grow into as you get older so like many things it’s is always worse now than it used to be.

Personally I was put off feminism when I thought I had everything I needed and therefore didn’t need feminism. I have reconnected with it since having children as my eyes have opened to just how unequal our society is. That and the attempted erasure of women as a sex.

[quote GoingGently]@DaisiesandButtercups it's true. After all, if we're not decorative what's the point of us?

It makes me so sad to see how young girls dress now and plaster their faces in makeup and fillers etc and pose provocatively for insta. I see all these pics of young girls posing porn-style in their bedroom mirrors. It's an aesthetic that comes directly from the exploitative porn industry (via the kardashians) surely? Really wish they'd wake up to that and engage with more feminist thought. Girls just seem to be marketed at and exploited more and more but seem unconscious of it.[/quote]
I agree it makes me sad too. I feel this is very much a feminist issue. My older daughter had Instagram from about the age of 14, she would show me what her classmates were posting, many of them with public accounts and followed by unknown men. Posting scantily clad, heavily made up and as you say porn style posts. It really is heartbreaking.

Just coming back to this thread as I couldn't find it after the reshuffle!

But having been thinking more about this, the original OP, and I said how much harder I thought it was for young women growing up know to feel able to speak up because through social media the growth of over sexism, the proliferation of porn, and the pressure to be sexuallly available.

But in the last few years there has been such a public onslaught on the very notion of women facing specific issues because of their biology, eg pregnancy and childbirth, and that somehow to refer to any aspect of this, even domestic violence (eg the social media pile on of JK Rowlings) that how are young women and girls about to navigate their way through the world as it is now. If you cant even use the words that describe part of the aspects of being a woman that are unique to their biology how can you have the discussion or form links with others who have shared experiences to yours.

Many, if not the majority of posts on here have talked about how becoming a mother was the turning point for them. Without signing up to some feminist party, becoming a mother changes how you then can or can not engage with the world.

Nobody wants to bring up their daughters full of gloom and despondancy about how they will never have the same choices as men, not just because of biology but because society places limits whether overtly or subvertly. But on the other hand if it generation constantly goes through the same process of children growing up apparently equal and then at whatever age, women realise their choices just aren't there, does that mean we will just go on repeating the same cycle over and over again.

I think we should all get away from feminism theory and think about what is actually happening to women in the world. It is not an attack on women who like lipstick etc to bemoan the increasingly stereotypical corner our female children are being pushed into. It is not an attack on the high flying superwomen to ask that society acknowledges that female bodies are different from men's and at certain times of our lives this should be taken into account. It is not an attack on the women who sail through pregnancy to ask that those of us less fortunate should have our needs met. It is not an attack on our feisty" women can do anything men can do " feminists if we say that it is monstrously unfair to allow male sportspeople to compete in female sport. Maybe it is equity we are looking for not equality?

I think that a lot of it is about capitalism and the way that capitalism is all about being free to do things. Free to set up a business, free to do what you want, free to get obscenely rich at the expense of others, etc etc.

People have forgotten that being free FROM things is as important, in many way more important. The freedom from thirst due to lack of water. The freedom from death due to an eminently treatable health condition. The freedom from harrassment. The freedom from sex-based oppression.

@NeedNewKnees

I think feminism is having a resurgence. Certainly through the Ladette 90s and early 2000s we vocal feminists were few and far between. It was seen as unneeded - we were throwbacks to bra-burning second wavers, and were bitter man-hating harpies.

The past 10 years has seen so much more mainstream discussion of feminism that it's been very encouraging. I think Mumsnet has been part of that for many.

I think this is so true - I was wondering the other day why I wasn't more interested in feminism in my 20s (in the 90s), and looking back there was a definite sense of it being less needed then. We didn't have the struggles our mothers and grandmothers had - we could go to university, get jobs, have sex lives before marriage, buy property etc with so much more freedom.

I am not sure there is a resurgance in feminism. I do think, thanks to mumsnet and others, a lot of people have become aware of the attack on women's sex based rights through the arguement that you can identify as a woman, and therefore women as a biological class (who are oppressed by the male sex class) doesn't really exist.

Much as I would like to think this has made many question what the implications are, they do so from a range of perspectives. And as we know it has been taken up by parts of the right wing.

And the sad thing is that the liberal and left politics has accepted that women aren't oppressed because of their sex (or that sex is a choice) and this gives them the opportunity to not have political strategies that protect the rights of women.

With so many in the media intimitaded from even making the most straightforward of statements about discrimination against women there is no real discussion in feminist terms.

So, I think there is an interesting set of comments here that are related, and are kind of an example of what I was getting at when I said that feminism doesn't speak to many women:

I am a feminist and I am GC, but one of the things that has turned me away from feminism, historically, is being told I’m not a “real” feminist or that I’m doing it wrong. It happens on FWR quite often.

People disagreeing with you or pointing holes in arguments (whether rightly or wrongly) isn't the same as being told you're not a real feminist or that you're not a feminist.

Much as I would like to think this has made many question what the implications are, they do so from a range of perspectives. And as we know it has been taken up by parts of the right wing.

So this has been my experience and observation. There are some women - maybe about half - who would consider that they are interested in women's rights, in women's place and treatment in society, in justice for women, and would like to be involved in talking about women for the good of women, with other women, and acting on that.

But they are not going to necessarily believe everything that academic feminists tell them they need to believe. They may be conservative, or even right wing, politically or economically. They might think daycare is bad for kids,. The might not be pro-choice, or pro-choice enough. They might not think all gender roles (like some types of fashion, say) are bad
and they might not think all personality or behavioural choices that seem to differer between male and female populations are socialised. They might not really think descriptions of patriarchy fit their observations.

Some of those ideas are probably common to a lot more than 50% of women.

If feminism is by definition left wing, and says things like "if you don't accept patriarchy descrbes something real in an accurate way, or believe there are no significant psychological or behavioural differences between male and female populations, or accept this formulation around legal freedoms, you aren't a feminist" -

it's just always going to be a niche view. Like any other very specific political ideology.

And the sad thing is that the liberal and left politics has accepted that women aren't oppressed because of their sex (or that sex is a choice) and this gives them the opportunity to not have political strategies that protect the rights of women.

It seems to me there's a weird ideological viewpoint in liberal and left circles that 'only minorities can be oppressed / face discrimination'. Which is a thoroughly bizarre notion because there are many past and present instances of a powerful / influential minority keeping down a majority.

Hence why it's probably viewed as unfashionable to stand up for women because they aren't some niche group to exploit for 'progressive' credentials. Look at the contempt many liberal/left types have towards white people in general (even though they themselves are white lol).

It also explains the drive towards oppression Olympics, with people eager to tick off as many 'diversity' boxes to show off how much more 'oppressed' they are - in this paradigm being a white person is a despicable thing, like a personal failing. If you are a white, middle class person with a relatively good life, you're an 'oppressor' but give yourself a made-up label like non-binary, gender fluid etc then tada!!!! you are now an 'oppressed' minority and people have to pander to your zie,zim pronouns or whatever otherwise it's literal violence.
Perfect opportunity for males to take women's places in sports, and other kinds of awards and recognition by donning the appropriate 'oppressed minority' labels.
I'm quite impressed at the elegance of such a paradigm. It's almost as if it was dreamt up by those with power to stay in power.

I agree with your observations SmokedDuck as I have noticed similar ideological issues/conflicts.
At one point I felt the feminist label suited me but I don't think it accurately describes my views as I have gotten older.

I am still very interested in women's rights, women's place and treatment in society, etc but come at it from a different angle and don't subscribe to all of the feminist theory or ideological positions.

Yes SmokedDuck and NonnyMouse1337! Perfectly put. Thank you both for articulating that.

@NonnyMouse1337

I agree with your observations SmokedDuck as I have noticed similar ideological issues/conflicts. At one point I felt the feminist label suited me but I don't think it accurately describes my views as I have gotten older.

I am still very interested in women's rights, women's place and treatment in society, etc but come at it from a different angle and don't subscribe to all of the feminist theory or ideological positions.

I'm no good on theory except in simple bite size chunks. It doesn't make me any less of a feminist. Well, I don't think so. Some are into the theory and ideology and some are more practical and many sit in between. My own views have evolved and continue to evolve as I experience different stages of womanhood and what life throws at me. There's still a lot I haven't quite made up my mind on and that's okay too. It's a journey.

See, what I don't understand, is why it isn't possible for you to think "oh, well I know that doesn't apply to me, so this isn't a personal dig or criticism of me".
I hadn't realised you were still talking about this. I'll just answer a couple of points. Firstly, if you read my posts (one of which ShagMeRiggins quoted) you'll see I wasn't referring to this thread or even this board but to 'real life' women's groups, some of them admittedly many years ago.

Has anyone said that liking fashion means you are not a feminist?
Yes they did. Not always, sometimes they just ignored me instead. This went on for some time until in the end I gave up.

Should I still let this put me off all these years later? That's a very fair point, I'm much older now and I'm sure I would hold my own better. But what I have noticed is that, whenever I have brought this up - and I don't mean on this thread or even only on Mumsnet - I always get:
'You should have told them xxx'
'Well what were you wearing?'
'You shouldn't have let it bother you.'
'So you're a lib fem them?' (No, I'm not, I don't share that viewpoint.)
Or - as on this thread - that I'm projecting.

Not once has anyone said, unequivocally and unprompted, 'Well that sounds shit.'
So no thanks, I'll stick to the online, invisible activities.

This isn't just about my story though which is trivial in the grand scheme of things. I was only prompted to raise it again because I think the drift among some younger feminists towards lionising the 2nd wave - and I still consider myself a 2nd waver - is troubling. Yes, it achieved a great deal (albeit, as I've said with support from an older generation) but it was also a very intolerant place. And by the way I didn't experience the worst of it by any means, as another poster has said, the attitude to motherhood and to mothers was absolutely fucked up. That was far, far more damaging and, if we brush it under the carpet, we're not going to learn. And I agree that the loss of 'Women's Studies', where some critical rigour might have been applied, has made it worse.

I moved away from feminism at various times because of the female = victim / male = oppressor discourses that still permeate much of feminism to the extent that opining that AMANLT is seen as a ridiculous thing to say rather than as a statement of truth.

Most women have male friends, brothers, sons and other relatives who they love and who fall into the NAMALT category and they may be alienated by some of the prevalent beliefs and discourses in feminism.

I absolutely hate the way that some feminst discourses are centred around the elevation of victimhood and believe that it does women no favours.

I also find many of the extremes of the arguments around victim blaming to be questionable and, in essence, not disimilar to the extreme ends of the TRA movement.

For example, I believe that it is a parents responsibility to ensure that their child is appropriately dressed for sports and will not have their knickers or genitals on display whilst engaged in such activities.

This is not because I believe that children are "Jezebels" or to blame for sexual perverts violating their privacy. It is because we live in the real world, which is a dangerous world, where we all need to do our best to protect ourselves and vulnerable adults and children from bad people.

I strongly believe that it is not victim blaming to encourage women and girls to learn martial arts / fighting skills. I mention this as I have read feminist material claiming that teaching women and girls fighting skills is a form of victim blaming.

Central to the extreme ends of transgenderism and feminism is the idea that thoughts trump reality.

Of course children should be able to do cartwheels naked in the park to their hearts content without being in danger from perverts. What a wonderful world that would be.

Of course women whould be able to walk home late at night without worrying about being violently or sexually assaulted. However possessing fighting skills is massively helpful if you are attacked and I would recommend the acquisition of such skills for this reason.

Stonewall, Mermaids et al posit that sex is a feeling, a knowing, divorced from the annoying world of biological sex. I do not share this belief.

Many of the dangerous cults I study claim that women have a "feminine essence" that connects us to the stars, the moon, the oceans, to magical realms.

Certain TRA activists claim to possess this feminine essence even though they are male bodied.

Personally I like science and reality and feel very suspicious of any discourse or movement that posits supernatural concepts and magical thinking at its core.

The world is infinitely nuanced and complex and it seems to me that every day we are under assault from various discourses that aim to stop us from retaining the capacity to think and to provoke and incite different groups of people into attacking each other, all based on binary oppositions and a lack of nuanced understanding.

These provocations aim to invoke a profound sense of grievance in various groups and to start little culture wars of women vs men, darker skinned people vs white people, disabled people vs able bodied people, the young vs the old, mask wearers vs covid denialists, everyone against everyone else basically.

I feel closer to some feminists at the moment than I have done for years due to the shared understanding of the undermining of reality by the extremes of the transgender movement.

I also think that, possibly due to the same issues drawing a more varied group of women to feminism, I feel closer to feminists who are less dogmatic and more nuanced in their perspectives on a range of issues.

The other issue that has helped to consolidate the appeal of feminism recently is that more feminists seem aware of the dangers of cults, including false memory cults, which mean that I can share details of the horrific abuses I have endures in this respect without being gaslighted.

I think (hope) that the days of feminsm being associated with body psychotherapy cults, false memory cults and "discover your inner sexy goddess" cults are drawing to an end.

There was a time when I couldn't share my experiences of a false memory therapy cult with feminists without being accused of being an apologist for satanic ritual abuse.

While that kind of gaslighting still happens from time to time, I can draw on a range of evidential links to help readers to discern truth from falsehoods. Some people will, of course, never let go of their entrenched positions, but I have some hope that things might change.

For example, I believe that it is a parents responsibility to ensure that their child is appropriately dressed for sports and will not have their knickers or genitals on display whilst engaged in such activities.

This is not because I believe that children are "Jezebels" or to blame for sexual perverts violating their privacy. It is because we live in the real world, which is a dangerous world, where we all need to do our best to protect ourselves and vulnerable adults and children from bad people.

I don't think there's anything wrong with girls choosing to wear 'modesty shorts', or with their parents suggesting it, if it has been raised as an issue by the child. I do not think that schools or public bodies should be suggesting that little girls ought to wear them. I seriously doubt that girls wearing modesty shorts while doing cartwheels in the school playground is going to have any restraining effect on the behaviour or predilections of paedophiles.

@NonnyMouse1337

I agree with your observations SmokedDuck as I have noticed similar ideological issues/conflicts. At one point I felt the feminist label suited me but I don't think it accurately describes my views as I have gotten older.

I am still very interested in women's rights, women's place and treatment in society, etc but come at it from a different angle and don't subscribe to all of the feminist theory or ideological positions.

Totally agree with this, and with @SmokedDuck’s points.

@hoodathunkit

I moved away from feminism at various times because of the female = victim / male = oppressor discourses that still permeate much of feminism to the extent that opining that AMANLT is seen as a ridiculous thing to say rather than as a statement of truth.

Most women have male friends, brothers, sons and other relatives who they love and who fall into the NAMALT category and they may be alienated by some of the prevalent beliefs and discourses in feminism.

I absolutely hate the way that some feminst discourses are centred around the elevation of victimhood and believe that it does women no favours.

I also find many of the extremes of the arguments around victim blaming to be questionable and, in essence, not disimilar to the extreme ends of the TRA movement.

For example, I believe that it is a parents responsibility to ensure that their child is appropriately dressed for sports and will not have their knickers or genitals on display whilst engaged in such activities.

This is not because I believe that children are "Jezebels" or to blame for sexual perverts violating their privacy. It is because we live in the real world, which is a dangerous world, where we all need to do our best to protect ourselves and vulnerable adults and children from bad people.

I strongly believe that it is not victim blaming to encourage women and girls to learn martial arts / fighting skills. I mention this as I have read feminist material claiming that teaching women and girls fighting skills is a form of victim blaming.

Central to the extreme ends of transgenderism and feminism is the idea that thoughts trump reality.

Of course children should be able to do cartwheels naked in the park to their hearts content without being in danger from perverts. What a wonderful world that would be.

Of course women whould be able to walk home late at night without worrying about being violently or sexually assaulted. However possessing fighting skills is massively helpful if you are attacked and I would recommend the acquisition of such skills for this reason.

Stonewall, Mermaids et al posit that sex is a feeling, a knowing, divorced from the annoying world of biological sex. I do not share this belief.

Many of the dangerous cults I study claim that women have a "feminine essence" that connects us to the stars, the moon, the oceans, to magical realms.

Certain TRA activists claim to possess this feminine essence even though they are male bodied.

Personally I like science and reality and feel very suspicious of any discourse or movement that posits supernatural concepts and magical thinking at its core.

The world is infinitely nuanced and complex and it seems to me that every day we are under assault from various discourses that aim to stop us from retaining the capacity to think and to provoke and incite different groups of people into attacking each other, all based on binary oppositions and a lack of nuanced understanding.

These provocations aim to invoke a profound sense of grievance in various groups and to start little culture wars of women vs men, darker skinned people vs white people, disabled people vs able bodied people, the young vs the old, mask wearers vs covid denialists, everyone against everyone else basically.

I feel closer to some feminists at the moment than I have done for years due to the shared understanding of the undermining of reality by the extremes of the transgender movement.

I also think that, possibly due to the same issues drawing a more varied group of women to feminism, I feel closer to feminists who are less dogmatic and more nuanced in their perspectives on a range of issues.

The other issue that has helped to consolidate the appeal of feminism recently is that more feminists seem aware of the dangers of cults, including false memory cults, which mean that I can share details of the horrific abuses I have endures in this respect without being gaslighted.

I think (hope) that the days of feminsm being associated with body psychotherapy cults, false memory cults and "discover your inner sexy goddess" cults are drawing to an end.

There was a time when I couldn't share my experiences of a false memory therapy cult with feminists without being accused of being an apologist for satanic ritual abuse.

While that kind of gaslighting still happens from time to time, I can draw on a range of evidential links to help readers to discern truth from falsehoods. Some people will, of course, never let go of their entrenched positions, but I have some hope that things might change.

Totally agree with this, too!

@hoodathunkit

Yes, the oppression thing is interesting. I think to some extent this is where feminism, quite early on actually, very much bought into the neo-marxist/critical theory approaches. Even before racial justice did, and to some extent I think it ushered this way of thinking into the mainstream of social justice. It also made it very vulnerable to gender ideology, and really anyone just saying that women's issues aren't real because someone else is more oppressed, because so many feminists or women interested in feminism already accepted that type of argument.

It also reminds me of this recent Meghan Murphy piece:

www.feministcurrent.com/2021/06/17/feminism-has-failed-to-offer-tools-for-young-women-to-truly-feel-empowered/

Feminism never bought into neo/marxist blah blah.

Feminism was based on the process of consciousness raising as pioneered by the Black Liberation Movement in the US.

That is in sharing common experiences of discrimination and oppression you then built campaigns, support networks or practical solutions to to that oppression.

Some women who were "educated" about feminism via unversity course might have thought that and unfortunately may have then spread this misrepresentation throught newspapers and now social media.

But any one who has or is actively engage in feminism is very obviously saying women aren't victims, as they are organising to oppose that oppression.

The only people who think that are people who just adopt concepts spread by the main stream (male) media.

Perhaps you should take the time to actually find out what feminism is in practice and not some silly dinner party discussion about some theory you heard some pundiet was given a platform to spread.

Haven't you ever wondered, which this thread has shown how many women have taken in media concepts of feminism and not what it actually is in practice.

Sitting at your keyboard saying feminism is about embracing victim hood is insulting to all the women who get off their backsides and are volunteering are rape crisis centres, helping out at refuges, campaigning to change the laws that discriminate against women.

Seems like a lazy excuse not to do anything.