This fear that social services will come and take your children...

[willsurvivethis]

...it worries me!

There seem to be so many women out there who are afraid to seek help for depression and other problems out of fear that they will lose their children.

I have just asked MNHQ if they would consider doing something with this. Because surely if so many of us fear to lose our children something is going wrong somewhere! Surely we should all be albe to seek help with confidence?

What are your thoughts on this? I struggle with PTSD and even told my doctor that I tended to keep emotional distance from my ds when he's ill without even considering the possibility of that having repercussions.

namechange4this1sorry

I really appreciated you sharing your story, as heart breaking as it is.
I find it a lot more valuable to hear of people's experience with social services first hand, rather than listen to constant wishful thinking about how SS supposedly are, from people who have never had SS assess THEM.

I too am plagued with worrying about how the social services sudden and very absolute removal of my son could have traumatised him, I used to go to the fosterhome and watch him play all on the floor and he looked so lonely, the woman taking care of him was about 60 years old and had a few other babies there, I don't think he got any affection at all.

He went from co-sleeping and breastfeeding with me and recieving all the affection in the world to that cold home and they kept him there for nearly a year before adopting him.
They critised me on their records for being overly affectionate him when they occasionally let me see him.

The only thing that makes me feel better is knowing that I gave him all the love he deserved for those first 4 months and hopefully his adoptivr parents are loving now too.
But all that time they held him hostage in care could have really hurt him, even my solicitor mentioned the adoptive parents had commented on how little affection he seemed to be recieving in that time too as they visited him at the foster home.

Name cahnge here too. I am about to go into a new Police role in Public Protection. I'm going to read this thread very carefully later. My Mum had a very difficult time when we were younger but she got through it. I wouldn't be where I am today without her support and love. I hope to be able to do my very best in my role. You may not see me post again as I worry that my opinions will be taken out of context but I will take on board what is said.

"i think this thread has run it's course"

For the first time in ever I'm able to hear about other birth mother's experiences and traumas and for ONCE finally feel empathy with these people, and feel empathised with, rather than the constant complete nonunderstanding i have to endure and at this point YOU 'think this thread has run it's course'
Has it all become too real for you, hearing about what people have really been through?

As for the socialworker posting here I think they're being very defnsive and putting words into mouths.
I've not read any person say 'all social workers are such and such'
We're sayin what we've been though.
Our veiws, based on experience are always being belittled by people saying 'oh i hate this media driven scaremongering'
Have any of us mother's who have been through hell because of social workers cited a media report as the source of all our worries?
Absolutely not.
Will we get irrate when such an issue is brought up? absolutely, it's natural for us to.
Obviously if your life hasnt been terrorised my SS then you can keep as cool as a cucumber, because you're probably not too bothered by it all, doesn't mean your veiw is any better or rational than ours.

Yes, let's not forget the damage done to children by being taken from their homes and made to answer a lot of insulting questions. Of the many horrors of the Orkney and Cleveland cases in the early 90s was the SS complete indifference to the trauma they were causing to children who had previously been safe and happy with their families (for those of you who don't know, these were cases of SS departments becoming subject to mass hysteria and removing DC in dawn raids because of 'Satanic Abuse' which in most cases was non-existant).
This is why it is so important for the public to be able to FIGHT BACK against the system, for the system to be HELD ACCOUNTABLE. It is not right nor fair for the state to have such arbitrary powers over people in the name of 'protecting' them, because people with power may abuse their power and therefore need to be open to independent inspection.

Brilliant post nickname123.

On MN it is not for anyone to say what people are "allowed" to talk about, or try to close down a conversation if it takes a direction they don't like. As long as there are no personal attacks, anything goes.

I for one am glad that this thread is enabling women (two in particular) to share their stories and if that helps anyone then that can only be a good thing.

This idea that people who come to these threads and report their bad experiences (we know who we are ) are in some way driven by an irrational fear brought on by media hysteria is silly.

Everyone knows it is hard to take a child and they can't just come and remove them. Everyone also knows though that mistakes can be made.

I would draw an analogy with a visit from the police - if you get a call saying teh coppers want to come and pay you a visit on suspicion of a heinous crime, you feel extremely nervous and worried. Even if you know you are innocent. Because innocent people have been convicted of crimes they didn't commit, and the police have a lot of power. Your rational brain would think it highly unlikely that it could go wrong, but emotionally you would not be able to feel anything but fear and concern.

It is exactly the same when you get a call to say SS are on their way. They too are coming to invetigate you on suspicion of a heinous crime (child abuse/neglect) and similarly the consequences are dire, and mistakes have been made.

When people are falsely accused of terrible crimes like rape and murder, when they are exonerated it is accepted when they say that they have suffered emotional problems as a result, that they have trouble sleeping at night, that is has been hell, possibly that their lives have been ruined.

But when people on the receiving end of such action from SS say that it is hard and stressful and scary etc they are told they are over-reacting and being silly. Yet they have been accused of abusing/neglecting their own children, and as crimes go you don't get much worse than that.

So why this continual assertion that it is in some way wrong or a sign of paranoia etc to feel like this? I would say it is impossible to understand why someone wouldn't experience some amount of trepidation.

Yup, this whole business of 'you must comply'. Actaully, as a free citizen of the UK I am not entirely sure why I should 'obey' some officious little twat fresh out of uinversity and fresh out of braincells. It should be possible to stand up to those SW's who are idiots or bullies or simply misguided without having your life turned upside down, and have an independent advocate if you are being mistreated by the authorities. Because the state is the servant of the people, not the other way round, and 'officials' need to remember that.

Great post starlight.

"Has it all become too real for you, hearing about what people have really been through?"

Nickname If you knew what my life was like as a kid and young adult and if you knew what kind of cases I deal with professionally you would not have made that comment. Believe me I know a bit about damage.

When I said this thread had run it's course I meant that what started as my attempt to see if others also think it is bad that women are afraid to ask for medical help has descended somewhat predictably in a very one sided attack on the 'system'. MN is a place where anyone can post so I won't stop you. Just feel I don't have much left to contribute because I don't 'do' black and white, I've seen too much from both sides.

willsurvivethis

Should I now imply that you're not being rational because you're thinking about your own personal story?
You seemed to want the thread to end when people got upset about what's happened to them.
No one here is saying that SS don't do any good.

You imply at the end of your post that we're just talking in black and white, that's offensive.
Have you really seem too much of both sides?
Have you been a mother whose wrongly had her child taken away and really seen what an impact that can cause?

I'm also concerned about kids who are wrongly left with abusive parents.
In all honesty, I personally, can empathise more with the wronged mothers because of my experience.
Maybe your veiw is as biased as mine just on the other end of the scale.
You've seen kids left to be hurt my bad parents, so you're more concerned about that.

Most of the pain that I have seen is from mother/child separation.
So I'll admit that is the greatest thing that concerns me.
Maybe we both have much to learn about the seriousness of how devastating the other end of the scale can be.

willsurvivethis

From your OP

"There seem to be so many women out there who are afraid to seek help for depression and other problems out of fear that they will lose their children.---- What are your thoughts on this?"

I have a DS 2.3. I think that I probably had PND. I am a bit depressed at the moment.

Will I be going to the doctors?

No.

Why not?

Because I will try to manage this myself at the moment. Not because I think that if I am diagnosed with depression someone from SS will turn up and take my DS.

But - I don't want it on record should my DS have an accident and I'm investigated.

The very fact that this thread has as you say "descended somewhat predictably in a very one sided attack on the 'system'"
means that you have a resounding answer to your OP question.

"YES" - of course women are scared and at times reluctant to seek help.

I strongly believe that social services should be interviewing under caution and should be TAPE RECORDING all interviews like the police do.

This should cut out the subjectivity.

Open up the family courts so they are reported on in the media.

Certain journalists could be granted special permission to do this.

They would be bound by the court not to reveal names of the people/children involved.

It is so so frightening and damaging that families are split apart due to suspicions of professionals.

Sad and tragic as it is, the line has to be that we are prepared to "accept" that some children will be harmed by their parents - but that children are never ever removed unless it is proved BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT - that there is a problem.

Thank you to everyone who is sharing their stories here.

Please look at these:

Elisha and Rachael's story

Mother Song and Toddler A's story

Ben, Kerry & Mark

(Leonie - found these on the blog you linked to on the thread about Kerry & Mark.)

I think that it is very interesting and heartening to see what a difference it makes when the internet world starts to shed light on these situations (eg Kerry & Mark's story - real time updates on Facebook and in blogs etc) instead of half-baked crappy reports in the papers.

nananina said "The only good thing is that John Hemming (an MP for Yardley in Birmingham) who posts on MN regularly and believes (along with lots of posters) that the cp system is evil and social workers just like snatching children from decent parent has not found this thread. I think this is because it is posted under Mental Health. "

That is true. I look at "In the News". People complain about me posting on Mumsnet because I shouldn't have the time. I don't have the time to look at everything, but I do watch "In the news" from time to time - although nothing should be read into whether I respond or not.

nananina and those who defend the system should listen to those who have personal experiences of how bad the system can be. With good practitioners it can be good, but when the practitioners are poor (50% in Birmingham) it can be a complete disaster.

The reason for this substantially is that the Family Courts normally fail to operate quality control on judgment. Hence children are taken into care when they shouldn't be (and end up psychologically damaged as a result of their experiences from the state).

It is entirely possible for someone to have good experiences from the care system. However, very many (and I mean tens of thousands) have very bad experiences.

The system as a whole is a mess. Notwithstanding the efforts of some good people.

It would be nice if more mumsnetters would be willing to join up with the campaigning on this.

People can contact me at parliament at [email protected] if they wish to join the campaign.

" you seem to be one of the few rational posters "

" your one experience "

Can someone please change the record whenever anyone posts of their experiences (however many) with the ss they are accused of being irration and inexperienced.

I think sw's are only seeing things from their own experience not the aftermath of destruction left in their wake.

I think across the MN boards there is a wealth of experiences with the SS and on the whole these are mainly bad, therefore the general consensus would be the ss are failing and contact with sw's is to be avoided and that there are far too many sw's out there with a god complex who are not doing their job correctly.

They are the borg. We will assimilate you and resistance is futile.

Mental health problems are used all too regually to take children into care, which is without a doubt barbaric.

I have absolutely no doubt that the SW who saw us is pleased with her sterling work, her lovely report and a job well done.

She does not know the stress and anxiety, the weight loss, the tears, she kept us waiting for 2.5 months for the outcome. That is not in the report.

What is in the report is inaccuracy, misinterpretation, and a statement that she had told us there would be no further action when she saw us (she didn't). It also doesn't mention that I had to sit down with the manager of my DD1s nursery and tell her all about it, as the SW had instructed, and then the SW never bothered ringing so I needn't have had to have that conversation. Ditto the GP.

So now the people involved in my care and my DD1s care have on their record that we have had SS intervention due to alocholism.

Am I likely to then go to my GP if I suffer any problems in the future, with that on my record? Um no obviously not. They must know that is a consequence of what they do. Why did they make me tell my GP if they had no intention of doing so themselves? I feel too embarassed to go there for anything now TBH.

I don't want to get into any arguments as I don't have the energy, but my job is to manage a front line child protection team. Speaking from MY experience, I do not want your children in care or for
your family to be involved with us for any longer than needed. I have paid for childminding to enable
mothers to have a break / attend therapy/ whatever is needed, involved other organisations and asked friends and family to offer support as appropriate. I have arranged respite fostering for hospitalised parents without family support ( and given the children back!)

The question I want answering is what does the child need to be secure and happy and in that sense any mental health issues are not the biggest issue ( unless of course the children are subjects of parental delusions and there is a high risk of harm) it's the impact on the child.

I know there are people here who have had terrible experiences, but I can honestly say that I think this would not be the case in my area and that avoiding seeking help would be counter productive and could
make things more difficult for you and your children as recovery could take much longer.

Nananina gets a lot of flak here, but her post is very informative and describes the process of my team's work.

It was seeking help that brought SS onto us in the first place. If I had not sought help I would not have ended up in that position.

That is the long and short of it really.

I was not offered any support with giving up drinking, incidentally, we were simply investigated.

I gave up drinking by myself. Despite having an enormous amount of pressure applied in the form of a report to SS on the basis of a 5 min phone call, and then having to wait 2.5 months to hear the outcome, and in the meantime have the humiliation of having to tell all this to GP and nursery. Which it turns out I needn't have done anyway.

Not at you wahwah I am sure you are good. But what happened to us will have been by the book, yet there will be nothing on record to show the adverse affect this experience had on us, and any future repurcussions.

[sad smile]

I don't want to upset anyone on this thread but in most of the cases stated, someone informed SS, they investigated and it was signed off on as no concern. Are people saying they don't want others to be investigated?

Surely, SS have a duty to look into every case referred, even if the referral is from over zealous busybodies. I would imagine that each investigation follows a line of questioning regardless of the family being visited