This fear that social services will come and take your children...

[willsurvivethis]

...it worries me!

There seem to be so many women out there who are afraid to seek help for depression and other problems out of fear that they will lose their children.

I have just asked MNHQ if they would consider doing something with this. Because surely if so many of us fear to lose our children something is going wrong somewhere! Surely we should all be albe to seek help with confidence?

What are your thoughts on this? I struggle with PTSD and even told my doctor that I tended to keep emotional distance from my ds when he's ill without even considering the possibility of that having repercussions.

Newto - that is so ridiculous!! I'm sorry you had to go through that!

It sounds like so often money has to come from a specific pot/budget and but if you want something cheaper than what they offer and it needs to come from a different pot then you can't have it .

Nickname looking at the real costs in your case, a short time in a unit like you needed -taking into account all the contact arrangements and social worker time and effort(?) involved in preparing for adoption - may well have been cheaper overall. Shortsightedness of a very damaging kind.

Organisations can be surprisingly bad at looking at true costs of things and 'forget' to take certain things into account. (She said as junior manager in a very badly run legal charity)

I haven't read the whole thread, but I really struggle with asking anyone for help. The reason for this is that I had pre-existing depression before I had my children. I had jump through hoops just to be allowed a 3 month 'trial' of looking after my DD. I suffered from very bad PND after having her, and although I went to the GP and took AD's, I didn't ask for any other help, as I had SS coming in twice a week to check that my house was spotless, I had food in the cupboard and nappies for my DD etc. I managed to get free of them when DD was about 15mo, it went down to monthly visits then (a lot of it was also because I had been on the at risk register, still was when I had DD as I was only 16). When DD was 18mo, I was pg with twins, which I lost at 11 and 13 weeks due to TTTS. I went 'off the rails' and got VERY depressed, so I went to SS for some help. I wasn't allowed to leave the building with my DD, and I was told that if I didn't sign the papers to put her in 'voluntary foster care' then I would never see her again..

It took a really serious court appearance with a very good family law solicitor for me to get my DD back after 3 weeks. And now, even though I am struggling with my epilepsy, DP's MH probs, DD's complex medical needs, DS2's complex medical needs, and to give my DS1 what he needs from me, I'm sodding petrified of asking for any help. I need help, I know I need help, I'm struggling to get through each day, and I'm trying to cope with ten times more than is humanly possible, I'm too scared to ask for it.

When my DP and I split up last time, and he did some pretty stupid things phoned SS and told them my kids weren't safe because of my epilepsy, and he wanted custody, I had hell and all trouble trying to convince them that just because I was disabled, didn't stop me from giving my DC's what they need, and that they didn't have to take them off me. They got adult social care to do an assessment for me, that said I needed a carer every day to provide support for the family with cooking and housework etc. I have never actually got that help, and I'm afraid that if I phone them and ask for what they (ss) have said I need that they'll say I can't cope an take the DC's off me.

And I do have experience of being a CHILD in the sw system as well, I was taken away from my alcoholic mother when 4yo, was in FC for a year, then was placed with my dad who has MH probs. After my dad committed suicide, no-one on his side of the family could be bothered with me, and SS wanted to save money, so placed me at 10yo back into the abusive situation they had originally pulled me from...to save money on FC costs. Despite being abused in various ways, it took another 4 years and me running away, refusing to go back, and taking an OD when they tried to take me back before anything was done. I was then shunted about between different family members until I fell pg with DD.

I was repeatedly told that because I had been abused as a child myself, it was a known fact that I will abuse my DD/leave her in abusive situations. NOT TRUE!!!

When DD was placed in FC, she was placed in a different TOWN to where I lived, 15 miles away, and I didn't have enough money for transport there, as I only had JSA to run the house, as if I'd not kept my house going, I'd never have got her back. I had to walk 15 miles there and 15 miles back for a 2 hr contact session. I was told it was to 'test my commitment to my DD'. On one visit, as I wasn't eating in order to pay all my bills out of £35 a week JSA so I had a home to bring DD back to, I collapsed from malnutrition whilst trying to get to an access visit. That very nearly lost me my DD. I was rushed to hospital and spent 2 days in there (discharged AMA as was due for next access visit). They said that my commitment to my DD was 'variable' because I missed that ONE contact visit.

While I did come across 2 (out of nearly 40) social workers that were wonderful, and as I wish all SW's were/are when I was a child, I have yet to meet one as a parent who doesn't think that my involvement with SS as a child has impacted on my parenting abilities.

When DP has made malicious calls when we have been apart and his depression has been bad, It has just extended their record. I have been told that even though the previous 3 times they have been contacted it has resulted in a 'no concerns' result being recorded, If I get one more referral (malicious or not) then SS will assume that there is 'no smoke without fire' and will seek an EPO for my DC's. Two of whom have asd, and even 72 hrs away from me will regress them horrifically (sp?).

I NEVER get any notice of a visit by ss, if they turn up at the door, and don't let them in, I have been told by them that they will INSTANTLY apply for an EPO on the basis that I 'must have something to hide'. Which means that any/all visits I do have are unannounced, giving me no chance to arrange to have someone with me to provide support.

So many many people out there do not have unjustified fears. If there was transparency in Family courts, it may not be such an issue. And if SW depts. weren't desperate to hold on to the few SW's they've got (good OR bad) then maybe complaints against individual SW's who are NOT working properly might be taken more seriously. TBH I think the fact that people who complain about bad sw's are put pressure on that they will lose their dc's (to shut them up) is because in some cp sw depts, that even the loss of one, BAD sw, can make it impossible for them to do their job at all. So while I can see sw's point that they are doing their job, don't take away dc's with unfounded beliefs etc, THEY are the GOOD SW's, who do their job properly. And I understand how criminally underfunded social work is as a whole, and especially CP sw. That however does not make what is an all to real fear prevent lots of people out there from getting/ asking for the help they so desperately need.

that should read all too* real fear.

And TY if you have managed to read both of my massively long posts.

This thread has helped to crystallise some of my own latent fears regarding going to the GP and discussing my state of mind - prone to depression, mood swings, lack of physical/mental strength to 'get up and do' stuff. I find it very hard to deal constantly with my 3yo DS' behaviour, and to top it all off, I home-educate, and don't vaccinate, etc... I was referred for some CBT after the birth of my 4th child, which was vaguely useful, but obviously can't 'solve' any of the underlying issues.

I had been considering trying to get organised enough (a major achievement at the moment) to make an appointment with my GP to ask for anti-depressants, but after reading StarlightMacKenzie's post, and others, think I'll just try to survive on St John's Wort. There is definitely a problem here.

3coolcats if you've read the thread you will also have seen that specifically health care professionals are not the people to ring social services at the drop of a hat.

Sounds like you are not the only one suffering, your ds is too. Please go see your GP.

3coolcats - honestly please don't listen to scaremongering. I was very seriously depressed and I found the professionals supportive, there was never even the faintest possibility of taking my DD away. If you need ADs, get them there is really no point suffering unnecessarily.

I have popped back in to have a look and only read this page. However it seems there is still scaremongering going on about SSD "taking children into care" because mothers are depressed. I'm sorry but this sort of stuff is scaremongering. The fact that mothers are refusing to go to their GPs for help with anx/dep because of this fear is really really worrying.

I know there are people coming on here with horror stories and please believe me I am not repeat not saying any posters are being untruthful, but sometimes there are differing perspectives on things and you just can't tell from anonymous posts on these threads what is the entire story.

I have spent 30 years of my life in childrens services as a social worker and manager and it is the law (Children Act 1989) that the first duty of the SSD is to keep families together wherever possible. There is rarely one single reason for applying to remove a child from home- it is almost always a combination of reasons and yes I know I am going to get shouted at by some posters for saying this, but I think this may be the case with posters talking of the children being removed because they were depressed.

It is true that sadly some children do need to be removed from their parents where there are very serious mental health problems, as in extreme forms of psychosis where thinking is so disordered as to pose a real risk to the child. As far as dep/anx are concerned the task of the GP is to offer prescriptions and or counselling and if necessary to look at what support is available externally to assist the parent whilst she is struggling with anx/dep.

I am amazed too that some posters are talking about the possibility of being sectioned under the Mental Health Act because they are depressed. There seems to be a complete misunderstanding and fear of how the mental health services operate in this country and I think the media ar partly responsible for this. Someone is only sectioned under the MH Act (meaning they can be compulsorily detained in hospital for a specific period of time) when they are a significant danger to themselves or others, and again this is people with a serious psychotic illness which makes them out of touch with reality. Depression is a mood disorder not a thinking disorder and sections under the MH Act are not relevant. It's a bit like saying "I'm afraid to go to the GP with my sore throat in case he wants to amputate my leg" (sorry a bit extreme but you get the idea.)

So PLEASE any of you mothers suffering with dep/anx please remember it is very common and GPs will see around 40% of their total patients with this problem. Please get the help you need without worrying about losing your children.

well done NanaNina

NanaNina, I agree that it is 'unusual' to be sectioned for depression, but bi-polar is a form of depression, and people can and have been sectioned for bi-polar disorder. I am not at all saying ALL GP's are like the one or two I have seen while depressed (one of whom was struck off the GMC register a year after I left the practice), SOME are.

And also, NanaNina, whilst SW's will not remove a child for just one reason, there are some not-so-good SW's out there who will often have very spurious reasons for removal of a child, other than MH issues. Like a parent (suffering from depression) who is not keeping their house as tidy as someone without depression would be able to. And instead of offering extra support (which there isn't the money in the SW 'pot' to do) the SW will remove the child. Most CP SW departments are terribly underfunded, so they cannot afford to provide ongoing practical support to all parents that need it (look at the lack of necessary repite care for SN children for example), and funding for Foster Care is not from a local level budget but a national budget, therefore sometimes, rather than 'keeping the family together' by providing the support needed to actually do that, it is often the only choice to 'take the child away' instead of paying out of an impossible budget to provide the support that would keep the struggling family together.

Whilst I would not advise anyone not seeking help from their GP for depression if they are NOT from the background I am from, I personally feel unable to, due to past incidents

Despite the fact that I am in a virtually untenable situation caring for 3 dc's, two of whom have SN and additional health needs, whilst coping with a disability myself, and trying to cope with a partner with depression, I know if I went to my local SW dept and requested respite care, they would do the same thing as they did when my DD was younger, as the level of support that I truly need to cope effectively is greater than the amount of money they have available to help me. As attested to by the fact that the carer I am MEANT to have to help me cook dinner without injuring myself during a seizure hasn't been forthcoming despite the fact that my adult care assessment done 2 years ago clearly states that I need this. If I admit I'm not coping without this help, I WILL lose my dc's.

BUT not everyone is in this situation.

Loudlass you are in a unique and very unenviable situation and I think you are doing a great job and you deserve much more support.

I started this thread because it seems that a lot of women with - for want of a better word- common or garden depression will not go to their GP because they are afraid that their children will be removed and that is simply not going to happen.

The problem with bi=polar is that some individuals get extreme highs and extreme lows and can at both ends be a serious risk to their own safety and lose insight in their situation making section inevitable.

Loudlass - I realise that you have an awful lot on "your plate" so to speak and you seem to be coping very well, so you must be quite a strong person.

However I must take issue with some of your assertions. It isn't possible for a social worker to remove a child because the mother has depression and the house isn't tidy (ot any other spurious reason) As I said in an earlier post, the removal of a child has to be a last resort and there are numerous assessments and professionals involved (not all social workers) and a lengthy court case. Before a case can be taken to court the lawyers acting for the local authority have to be certain that the conditions or threshold for care proceedings are met, and I can assure you that depression in a mother and an untidy house are certainly not going to meet those conditions. Additionally no sw is going to even consider taking a case to court on those grounds and no judge is going to grant a Care Order on those grounds. Sorry this is just not going to happen.

Youare right to say that SSDs are under resourced, in terms of social workers and funding. However you are wrong to say that sws will remove a child rather than offer preventative work. Firstly sws can't simply remove a child for monetary reasons and in an event removing a child means that there has to be a lengthy court case and this all costs - in terms of social work time (an immense amount of time in doing assessments and gathering evidence to present the case to court) a court fee etc etc. You are also wrong about the fostering budgets in local authorities. This is not a national budget. Payments to foster carers are made out of the S.20 budget held by local authorities. There is no such thing as a national budget for foster carers. These payments take up a large amount of the SSDs budgets. If the child is placed with l.a. foster carers the payments are less than if the child is placed with foster carers who work for an independent fostering agency, who chareg roughly 3 times the cost of local authority fostering.

I agree that there should be more preventative work and support packages. The problem is there is insufficient social work time to carry out all the preventative/support work that is needed and this does mean unfortunately that some families do not get the support they need. However it definitely does not mean as you assert that children are taken in care as an alternative to support.

I think it important that anything posted about the way in which SSDs operate is factually correct.

If I have got the budgeting information wrong, then I apologise.

If there is insufficient sw time to carry out all the preventative/ support work needed, do you not think that if the help is NEEDED but not given, that ultimately that family will end up at a crisis, and therefore having their children removed, when the preventative/ support work that wasn't given would have prevented that?? Which ultimately means that for lack of funds (to provide enough sw time to do all the preventative/support work necessary), some children will end up being removed from a family when they probably wouldn't have been had the family actually had the help they needed?

And as far as I am aware, through previous visits etc (which I have written reports stating as much), that if your children are on the at risk register (including if they were put on there as a preventative measure because the mother is under 18yo and still on the ARR herself), then having an untidy house along with depression is a good enough reason for a SW to apply for an EPO, which will often be granted on the basis of one SW's report, even if there is a personality clash with the sw (who believed that I was an unfit mother because I stopped bf at 6 months on doctors orders as my DD was failing to thrive on bf). The SW is always believed over a mother with SS involvement as a child and a history of depression. The SW in question was later sacked for trying to do the same thing with another mother....NOT all SW's are the best thing since sliced bread and helpful etc. Some are treu gems, but they are few and far between, and never seem to work in CP for long.

treu??!! TRUE!

Loudlass - you don't need to apologise - we are all just anonymous posters on here - bits of text on a screen - I was just trying to set the record straight.

I totally agree with your comments about lack of resources for preventative work and the possibility that this will mean that a family situation will deteriorate to the point where it is unsafe for children and removal has to be considered, maybe on a temporary basis. I think it should be remembered that even where children are removed this does not mean that efforts to return them to the care of their parents ceases. This should always be the first option.

I haven't followed the details of your particular case LL and of course you willonly be able to give brief details on here. I was talking more generally really about the threshold for making application for a Care Order and the fact that the sw and anyone else involved in the care proceedings need to be able to evidence what they are saying,rather than just give an opinion.

I have in another thread (think it was about worry about children being removed from parents - original post was by Iwillsurvive
itemised all the steps that have to be taken before a final decision is made about a child's future. I am aware of course that like the rest of humanity, social workers are all different and some more warm, humane and understanding than others, but that's just the way it is with everyone isn't it really. It sounds like you had a bad experience with sws and this is bound to colour your judgement.

I am a bit cautious about your assertion that your sw was "sacked" for "trying to do the same with another mother" - how do you know this because if the sw was sacked (and I have never known this happen but obviously ti can happen) the details of her dismissal would be entirely confidential. I think soemtimes rumours abound and care needs to be taken about these matters.

LL - I've just realised it was on this thread that I posted the itemised steps that have to be taken by law before a Judge can make a Care Order on a child. sorry I got mixed up - on account of my great age I think!

I was a bit older and wiser than when I had the original problems, and was actually advocating for the other mother....And while I admit that my judgement on some sw's may be coloured, I do give each individual sw the benefit of the doubt, I just think that Essex SS CP dept(who most of my dealings have been with, both as a child and as an adult) are...err...not necessarily the best in the country...and have far to high a case load due to the population density...to be able to work effectively. They also have such a high turnover of staff that in one 12 month period, I had a total of 14 key workers...

Just started reading this thread and not sure if its to late to post as new to MN but need to vent so here goes. I have a history of MH problems and suffered from psychosis in 2002 and was diagnosied with a personality disorder. On the flip side, im happily marrried, have a good career, a healthy social network and im happliy 34 weeks pregnant. However.. at my hospital booking vist i was asked about mental heath and i stupidly told them. Now as a result of that.. i have been referred to ss and the perinantel mental health team. Comments have been made to me by the MH team such as.. if i show signs of stress in labour in wil be sedated, i cannot leave the hospital until i have been assesed, i must express breast milk so that other people can feed my child so i can rest and if i become ill then my child my be taken into foster care, the list goes on! Im lucky to have a great midwife who is just as shocked as me at my treatment. Im now batteling for a home birth! I am so angry that i am having the fight of my life when this is meant to be one of the happiest times of my life! Im am sooo shocked by all of this and sadly i will NOT be asking for help if the worst happens and i get pnd. I will seek support elsewhere!I could rant some more but this is already a very long post so if you have read it then thankyou.

So what happens when you go to the doctor with suspected PND? Is a SS referral automatic, or do they manage it themselves for a while? Am too scared to go to GP because of SS risk despite struggling quite a bit at the moment. There is no risk to my children at all, but don't want to get embroiled in a box ticking exercise?

51 weeksapart - please go to see your GP to get some help that you clearly need. I can assure you that social workers are not looking for reasons to remove children from their parents, despite what some posters are saying. In fact it is quite the reverse, children have to have been significantly harmed or are at risk of significant harm before removal is even considered. It is the law that social workers do all in their power to offer the support that is necessary to keep families together. Unfortunately because of lack of resource they are not always able to offer a great deal of support.

When you see your GP tell him/her your fears about SSD involvement and I am sure that they will be able to reassure you on this. To be honest the main problem with social services these days is the fact that children who really are being harmed aren't removed quickly enough and that is why we end up the child tragedies. No one is going to be interested in trying to remove a child who is well cared for but whose mother is struggling with PND. SO please go see your GP for help.

Well said NanaNina

Loudlass's expeience isn't exceptional.
It sounds very similar to mine.

Leonie please show some respect that kind of language is just not necessary so why use it- and the experience you mention is shared by only a few, but they have been very vocal on this thread.