This fear that social services will come and take your children...

[willsurvivethis]

...it worries me!

There seem to be so many women out there who are afraid to seek help for depression and other problems out of fear that they will lose their children.

I have just asked MNHQ if they would consider doing something with this. Because surely if so many of us fear to lose our children something is going wrong somewhere! Surely we should all be albe to seek help with confidence?

What are your thoughts on this? I struggle with PTSD and even told my doctor that I tended to keep emotional distance from my ds when he's ill without even considering the possibility of that having repercussions.

nickname it's just so awful. Your post has brought tears to my eyes.

What kind of "child protection" experts think that it is a bad thing for a mother to cuddle her children?

mamadoc you must use your professional judgement, of course. There are many children being abused and neglected and I'm sure you're not "trigger happy".

Starlight/ImSoNotTelling I've spent a lot of sleeptime thinking about what I want and why I started this thread:

I want a woman with a mental health problem that does not impact on her parenting ability (ie almost all of them) to be able to feel confident to get medical/therapeutical help.

I want women whose parenting ability is affected to get help that is focused on keeping her and her family together, with the help and support of as many professionals as is needed, cost what cost.

I want children who are being neglected/abused to be protected by SS - pronto.

Should not be too much to ask surely.

Atlantis yes all those charities subscribe to 'every child matters' - would you want an organisation that would simply protect all parents who say they are falsely accused by SS. Something similar exists in the US and it is frightening. The False Memory Syndrome Association advocates for and supports every parent accused by an adult child of having abused them and will discredit the child's memories with the use of 'experts'. All you have to do to get their help is say that you didn't do it...

"Atlantis I must be honest and say the word 'conspiracy theory' jumps to my mind reading your post!"

Thats ok, it occured to me too. But when you join the dots and see how they ll work together you find the pattern is there.

Look at cafcass, top man is Anthony Douglas, cafcass as your probably aware are the 'independent' court advisory service, they not only work in private law but public law deciding if children should go into care (which can lead to adoption) now look at BAAF, top man is Anthony douglas (one and the same) BAAF or the British Association for Adoption & Fostering as it is better know do what they say on the tin ( as it were) BAAF also produce literature for ss and run million pound schemes for their adopters before allowing them to adopt. Then look at Coram, coram work with cafcass doing court work but also run adoption homes and produce literature for BAAF and CAFCASS and ss.

And it goes on.

I don't mind being labelled a conspiracy theorist some of the worlds top minds have been labelled that in the past

Avril - I agree, from my own experience. This summer when my PTSD was at its worst my son noticed I wasn't right. See my OP. And I needed help and he was my main reason to get better.

But all that time he was hugged, cuddled, told I loved him, fed, changed, read stories, taken out. It just cost me ever such a lot of energy and it is now I'm halfway better that I can suddenly jump up and say yey lets do something stupidly fun and very messy.

So my parenting was affected, but still adequate, I was still a good enough mother (my therapist would be so pleased to see me write this...) - I did not need SS and I did not need the fear of SS (so glad I didn't have either)

By willsurvivethis Mon 01-Feb-10 09:09:12
"...I want a woman with a mental health problem that does not impact on her parenting ability (ie almost all of them) to be able to feel confident to get medical/therapeutical help..."

I think this is already the case. What is hard is convincing the majority of mums with depression that their children are in no danger of being snatched.

"See, this might be hurtful but I have to say that I believe that all mental health problems impact on parenting ability, mine certainly do. That is not to say that my baby is not adequately cared for, or that parents with mental health problems should lose custody of their children"

Of course mental illness impacts on parenting ablities. So does having a common cold, cancer or any other physical aliment.

There is an element of paranoia on this thread. My GP told me that even if my brain chemistry was slightly unusual I was still a better mother than many of the mums on his list.

By Reallytired Mon 01-Feb-10 14:06:26

I think this is already the case. What is hard is convincing the majority of mums with depression that their children are in no danger of being snatched.

That's exactly it - that's why I started this whole thread

I think everyone wants a mother with PND to get help.
But many mothers on here who know about the awful things that can happen from having PND documented, which is why they're worried about telling a doctor.
If I get PND I would love to be reffered to a counsellor, but is it worth the risk of having social services possibly use it against me, or my ex who wants to take our son away? Absolutely not, I'd have to deal with it alone.

Nickname - despite the many posts on here there are actually only a few to whom it has actualy happened. It is thankfully rare to have an unspeakably horrid experience like you.

But if you would say each one is one too many I would wholeheartedly agree!

The stats from earlier show an awful lot of assessments being carried out though - wahwah was kind enough to clarify that the figures include repeat assessments, are counted twice for 2 children in a family and include people being assessed for fostering etc.

But half a million referrals a year and 350,000 initial assessments still seems an awful lot next to the number of families in the UK.

Look at what leonie's and my nursery manager said - that it is really common.

There is something wrong in the referral/targetting of this service, I don;t know a better way of doing it though I have to say.

What I am sure is true though is that HCPs are less likely to refer than other agencies - see mamadoc's post earlier and my experiences with perinatal anxiety.

It seems to me to be down to bad luck, getting reported unnecessarily. So I guess maybe you need to look at it the same as getting hit by a car. It's a very real risk every time you go out, but a very low risk, so you don't stop going out. It's a very real risk you may be reported unnecessarily, but a very low risk, so still continue to seek help?

I think wahwah also mentioned assessment for statementing etc - that will account for a lot of assessments too.

I am fairly good with stats and all I could see from the stats provided is that they were likely to be accurate but that I needed a lot more info to correctly interpret them. And although wahwah helped with that we are still no nearer to knowing how many families were unnecessarily subjected to an assessment.

I like the car crash analogy and it had occurred to me too - but I think the problem is that most people are confident that A&E would take care of them and fix them afterwards...

someone else who likes numbers.

Agreed teh numbers are impossible to interpret without further info and breakdowns by type etc etc.

i suppose I was just trying to reassure myself that it is quite a common thing to happen, which makes me feel better.

Yes re. A&E.

The other problem with this is that we are talking about PND, depression, anxiety etc etc mental health issues, which as someone earlier said can involve paranoia & unhelpful thoughts. Which baturally compounds the problem. Not saying these symptoms are there with all mental health issues but it is worth factoring in I think.

I'm sorry that I can't be more helpful, but in relation to the stats, a minority of assessments are of children thought to be in need of protection and a majority of these ime don't go any further once we've taken a look at the reality of the situation. Of the assessments which do conclude that children need to be protected, most are subject to a plan ( I think it's around 27 per 10,000) and it's only in a tiny minority of cases where court action is required.

The vast majority of assessments relate to looking at what support services (if any) are required eg eligibility for disability registration, children living in violent households.

I agree that one family traumatised by unnecessary intervention is one too many and I don't underestimate the impact. However, we're not always going to know which children are ok and which aren't without intervening, but we should intervene sensitively and carefully. I totally support advocates and encourage sharing as much information as possible. I am less sure about recording all conversations as it can set up a background of mistrust and hostility (imagine if every professional you were in contact with wouldn't interact with you without recording it) but I don't feel as if it would stop me saying what needs to be said.

I really hate this climate of suspicion about social workers, it stops people getting help and makes out job a million times harder. Now I accept there have been mistakes and problems, but I do not believe the system is broken - it is overwhelmed and struggling, but at heart it is sound. Bit like me on occasion!

""I really hate this climate of suspicion about social workers, it stops people getting help and makes out job a million times harder.""

If I had had ANY suspicion about social services back then, i would still have my son with me now.
The PROBLEM was that I trusted them to help me.
If i can warn anyone to stay away from them i will.
Rather me safe than sorry when it comes to your life (your kids).
All my family also let them do their thing because they too trusted them to help me.
What a mistake. The costliest mistake that could be humanly possible to make.

wahwah don't think it is the comments of MPs that are frightening people away from asking for help.

MPs are not that influential. People learn first from their own experiences and then they listen to those of the family, friends and acquaintances. MPs come a long way down the list.

It is the way the system behaves that causes this reaction.

It's also one of those things where one bad incident gets propogated, but positive ones are not told.

Like when the police kicked that bloke to death, combined with a few other things where they acted less than properly, and bingo large swathe of people lose all faith in them.

Difference is that police are aware of this problem and are permanently on a charm offensive, issuing their results left right and centre and telling us what a good job they do and how nice and friendly they are really etc.

I am not sure that SS are fully aware of how terrible their image is, and how badly they need to go on a charm offensive. presumably they want people to feel positive about the service?

Nickname seeing your experience, can I rope you in positively and ask you how you think the system can be changed and improved?

What needs to happen for women to be safe with social services in your eyes?

Imso - I totaly agree with that post, but I'd rather not have a charm offensive if it covers up problems.

John Hemming I don't think wahwah blamed you or indeed MPs

I think we need good social workers with common sense, like people who have actually been parents or carers themselves, people who have the life experience and knowledge to realise that children belong with people who love them 99.99% of the time.
Not judgemental little pricks who wanna come around and see how dusty your TV is and make negative comments about you still breastfeeding a 1 year old, etc

If mum is staying with an abusive man, for god's sakes realise she's a victim herself and take her to a refuge, she might not even know a refuge exists, help the mother to stay with her children.
They critisizedme for not knowing where i was sleeping some nights, i was 16 yrs old, why didn't they tell me somewhere i could go? They just used it against me as another reason to keep my kid.
Even in extreme cases if it means putting a woman in a sheltered house to help her care fo her children initially and teach her how to be a good mum, it is worth it when a mother child bond is established.

But they don't help the parents in many cases i know of, despite the child guardian saying i should be in a mother and baby unit to have a chance with my child they didn't want to pay the money for it, or 'risk' me possibly not being a good mum.

They don't realise how important it is for (an innocent) mother and baby to stay together regardless of ££££

I read of a woman who was told her babies would be taken away because she had learning difficulties and they just adopted them at birth.
I think even if they would have had to check on her everyday for 18 years it would have been worth it for those babies to have their mother.
They seem to work like a bussiness to do whats financially easier.

Having your babies taken is the worst thing that could possibly happen to a person, like the hindus say, they wouldnt wish it on their worst enemy.
But they take babies from vulnerable people because in 'their' view the babies would be better off with x,y and z.
What if a woman cant teach her kids to read past key stage 3?
What about the mother and child bond? the most important thing imaginable to me, and they dont even acknoledge it.

I think girls under 18s who have babies themselves should have the opportunity to go into a foster home together, before being helped to go out into the big wide world together
:-) ...in a perfect world

Great posts nickname, and very sensible.

Especially the last point.

That last point is a good one nickname. Although I was under the impression that teenage girls and their babies were fostered together? I take that is only if you are under 16?

Nickname that happens here locally - there's a big house where they all live with support and child care is arranged so that education can be finished. It works ok if you bear in mind just how hard it is to be a teenage mum and sit exams too.

I was 15 when i had my son but just turned 16 when i asked social services for help.
If you go into care a day before your 16th birthday they will look after you untill youre 18, then give you your own place, extra money to start up, etc..
however the day after your 16th and youre completely on your own.

My solicitor, child guardian and the manager of a mother and babyunit came into court and asked that i go into that place with my son like i said.
Social services refused (it was said to cost around £1000 a week)
like i said they just adopted him cause they didnt wanna risk me possibly not coping :-s

willsurvivethis if every girl in my position then had the chance to have what youjust said then i would be happy.

I understand first hand what a tight budget social services are on. when my mum was sectioned i was left looking after my six year sister and my twelve year old brother.
I was 16, in fulltime college and as we were involved with social services already (had been in care when i was under 16 when mum had cracked up) i asked the social worker to put my 6 yr old sister in the after school club so she would come home at 5pm not 3pm.

She said she could only send the crisis team round to the house in the mornings and afternoon, she couldn't pay out £13 for the afterschool club 2 days a week to help us.
I had to say yes to the crisis team coming instead, but they never even came.
It was a really difficult time with no support and i missed lots of college.

Hello newto here - are you very new? If so welcome to MN!

I do like the way that inevitably these threads always end up with people who have stories to share, and experiences to talk about, I hope that talking does help with some of this stuff, for everyone who has had such difficult times.

Great suggestions on here about how to improve matters - we know that at least one MP reads these threads and I know from experience that relevant charities etc look at MN too - just putting things down here might spark something somewhere you never know.