Alcoholics Anonymous triggering CPTSD. Please advise!

[connecsheon]

I started AA in January as I was using alcohol a little too much to deal with being re-traumatised by my abusive father. My main issue is not alcohol it's CPTSD possible BPD too.

At first I quite like people showing me a bit of kindness and my determined nature has kept me away from alcohol without any slips up.

However, I feel I am now being pressured by one woman who has become a friend to go to as many meetings as possible and keeps pressuring me to get a sponsor.

They call AA free therapy. I have trying to keep my boundaries with her and stuck to one day which is plenty for me. She goes every single day sometimes twice a day and keeps going on and on phoning me to come. So I go to the odd extra one.

I am starting to hate these meetings. Listening to vague stories that trigger me and make me go home feeling worse. It is used as a dating agency by some and I see predatory behaviour going on. This friend is using it to find a husband and went off after the meeting to have sex with man who picks her up and puts her down and triggers her to relapse. She doesn't even do the steps herself, but keeps piling on pressure to get a sponsor. Some of the people are vile, and the ones who aren't still make me feel pressured. She calls me her life guru, but I'm a newcomer and don't want this type of relationship.

I hate the whole 12 Steps program; it uses the same language as my past abusers. I do not want a sponsor to a program that I believe is very shaming. But this woman keeps pressuring me.

I was dragged to a meeting yesterday and felt so socially awkward, as we'd arrived early and I asked her if I should sit in the car whilst she did her "service". A man who I have never me heard this and I must have dented his ego by saying this as he called me "a silly old woman,"
for saying such a stupid thing.

I just want to do my therapy with my QUALIFIED therapist, focus on my main goal with her and slowly build safe social connection on the side.

Where can I find social connection without falling prey to these culty type groups? I'm already worried about how I'm going to explain that this whole thing is not for me to this friend that I am now finding manipulative and controlling.

Hi OP. Maybe you need something a bit more boundaried. Can your therapist recommend group therapy run by a therapist who won't allow the predatory/dating-type behaviours you've mentioned to develop?

The alternative is to try a different AA group - I have never been but I understand that different groups operate very differently and you might find one that is naturally a bit more holding and less volatile.

I do not like the program so there's no point in going to meetings with people going on about getting a sponsor. I want no part of it.

I think I should do what you suggest and ask the therapist for a safe group.

How do I back off from this woman who pressures me without any drama and so that she takes no for an answer?

I think you should stop going immediately. Especially to this group with that woman. There are other groups, other organisations, many online support forums and dozens of amazing books to support you.

I refused to do AA because of the religious and guilt aspect. Also its just not me to open up to strangers. It works for many but not me. Do what you feel comfortable with.

AA is not for everyone & it fact is damaging for some.... I'll leave my (personal) experience at that.
You simply need to block her , stop attending.
Most people will find their self medication with alcohol stops when address the reasons why they use it.

You're not ill, you don't have a disease & there's no higher power op. You need good quality professional therapy. Am I an alcoholic? absolutely not. I am someone who had a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol and now do not drink.
You don't have to label yourself an alcoholic either.
My all time top book recommendation is Alcohol Explained by William Porter..... straight talking, facts.

Thank you I don't class myself as an alcoholic either. I have complex emotional problems from CPTSD and I have begun learning healthy coping strategies. These meetings just trigger me for the worse.

The woman knows where I live now and talked about "dragging me out of your house" if I stopped going to meetings. It's the type I need to gradually back off from but I will stop the meetings immediately. Maybe if you're not in the group she will drop you anyway.

I honestly don't need this crap! I feel like I've caused myself more problems trying to get help! I'm sticking to professionals and I'm going to find a professionally run group next time too!

I would suggest you stop attending. AA is weird for all the reasons you have outlined. I suggest you try SMART, there are plenty of online meetings if no face to face meetings locally, including a woman only one.

Yes I've heard of SMART and it's trauma-informed too so much more suitable.

Sarah Rusbatch is an online 'AF guru' who does women only online courses, aimed at 30 days AF. She is based in Oz but gets participants from UK, there is an associated FB group that is very supportive (private, limited to group members only). I think the next course is in April, they cost about £50.
https://sarahrusbatch.com/30day-af-program

What is AF?

AA definitely isn’t for everyone. Could you try a different meeting maybe?

I’m not an alcoholic but am in Al Anon and have been for a long time so attend joint AA and Al Anon meetings. The ones I have been to and witnessed don’t seem to be anything like this so I wonder if a different meeting might be better?

I've been to different meetings. One is ok but I do not like the program, so attending meetings is pointless.

I did a course online. Assuming as people have mentioned smart recovery it's ok to mention that the course I took was called 'shrink the drink 30 day challenge'
There's fb groups, zooms, real life meet ups all over the country. Run by 2 qualified coaches.

This AA woman sounds deranged! The type that if you don't stand up & say you're an alcoholic you're in denial 🤣 or some high power is responsible for your 'recovery'
I think you just have to get brave & be really firm with her. Then block, do not answer door etc.
Good luck!

Yes @Manchestermummax3 I told her that I would not be going to the 2 meetings today! Then she started ringing me straight away and is obviously annoyed.

I'm not going to denigrate AA or get into any discussions like she usually embroils me in when I voice concern that this isn't for me.

I will say I am getting good quality therapy (I have started this already). She always puts this down and has an answer for everything to try and get me dependant on AA. Tbh I have no urge to drink and just need real therapy for what is the root cause anyway. I think I've invited a drama person into my life, who incidentally says she doesn't like women only men. I will have to extract myself from this mess - all I need . Especially when I already have major trust issues.

Hi Op,

I signed up specifically to reply to your post.

You are not alone.

I too had a damaging experience with AA. It is still viewed commonly as the 'go to' generic suggestion for problem drinkers. This is usually by well meaning people that have not had direct experience with the organisation.

It is still inflicted on the aggrieved that the problem lies with them and not the fellowship.

I can tell you, these feelings you're having are your Spidey senses kicking in, your gut instinct that 'this doesn't feel right'. Listen to it.

I was (and still am!) a professional in a field where I know the science behind addictions and behaviours. But members of the fellowship still had me believing I was the problem for questioning or rebuking some of the clichéd 'advice' and practices in the group.

I could have an awful lot to say - but this isn't the place when advice is best 'short and sweet'. But AA works on religious fear mongering (they'll tell you it doesn't, but it does. Someone will always come along with a jolly story of how they're husbands friend has been sober and well thanks to AA for 25years ) but if you attend the meetings regularly enough and really immerse yourself there are some very unhealthy behaviours and mindsets of individuals attending.

I witnessed self appointed 'leaders' hungry for control of vulnerable people. Many sexual predatory behaviours, guilt tripping, shaming and scaremongering. In my opinion there is many ticks in the 'cult' box when it comes to AA. 90 meetings in 90 days (quote) is to ensure you're ripe for brainwashing. The more vulnerable you are the better. The practices are from a 1930s book written by male alcoholics FOR male alcoholics.

The vulnerability of women and the sliding scale of problem drinking Vs alcoholism is not taken into account.

I left with my self esteem underground and if I'd have taken their 'advice'- quite frankly I'd have destroyed my life (without exaggeration)

I had gotten in a bad rut for many years with my mental health. I came from a family where it was shameful and stigmatising to talk about mental health. That's where I started - on my mental health. Counselling etc wasn't for me. But my goodness, anti depressants changed my life. That amongst other things. I don't drink alcohol anymore. I just went longer and longer between binges, until one day I thought 'i'm done actually. This no longer serves me' haven't drank since. Never say never, but it couldn't be further from my mind on a daily basis. (Took me a few 'lapses' in the beginning couple of years)

Which route you go down for your own mental health care will look different for you. But believe in yourself, believe you can get better and prioritise self care and what you wish your future to look like. Peace and calm are always good aims- nothing too extravagant.

Be assertive to that woman (something AA people don't take kindly to so brace yourself) and state "thanks for being there for me at a difficult time. I'm now getting alternative support that's a better fit for me. AA doesn't align with my goals " you'll be scaremongered that you'll 'drink and die/this is the 'disease ' talking/you're headed for a relapse ' to keep you hooked. But it's simply not true. A lot of people do just that as it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Good luck with your future. Invest heavily in your mental health help and Leave those 'alcoholic' labels behind. You've got this.

@PearPineappleApplePen

Firstly I want to thank you so much for signing up to leave this brilliantly written post for me.

I agree with absolutely everything you've said. I feel so validated! You have put it so succinctly.

I am actually proud of myself that my gut instinct is screaming at me.

I will be making social connections at my own pace with people I choose. I will carry on with my therapy and using my health coping strategies.

Brilliant to hear your progress and thank you again.

This reply has really put a smile on my face !

I can hear that you are enthusiastic about your next steps. Great stuff!

I wish you the best of luck for your future. Keep confident about your abilities to tackle your problems. You really can be well and live a fulfilling life. If I can do it, anyone can.

Good because your post put a massive smile on mine!

What a wonderful post @PearPineappleApplePen!
Everything I wanted to say and more!
Good luck @connecsheon & do update us with how you're doing/what direction you chose to take.

Thankyou @Manchestermummax3 . I'm really glad to be able to help. And offer some positivity. I could fill this whole thread with my analysis and experience of AA. (And I didn't actually stick around that long )

It's really nice to be able to say to people such as @connecsheon "I hear you. No it's not a you problem. There is hope " and my goodness there is !

So @connecsheon , as @Manchestermummax3 says- feel free to update us on your progress ! And do report back if you encounter any problems with polite disentanglement from the woman from AA.

A late answer to a question above, AF is alcohol free.
AA can be a bit cult like I think, a desire to draw others into their belief system.

Hi @connecsheon , it's @PearPineappleApplePen . I'm posting under a different account (long story, I thought this original account was no longer in use as I couldn't sign in, but it is...) but anyway I digress!

I completely understand your feelings. I too felt a very similar fear of extricating myself and wanting to go quietly. Because they "scoop you up" and "help you" when you're vulnerable it can lead to feelings of you're in they're debt and "you owe them " (which I do think is purposeful to be honest). But you don't. They have an agenda (like other "cults" (if you see them that way as I do). Recruiting new members keeps them going. I honestly think in 20 years time it'll die a death. People of today have the savvy to not be following books written in the 1930s. Most of their techniques and teachings go so much against today's ways of thinking. Labelling yourself an "alcoholic" (some people who are physically dependent on alcohol will meet that criteria, but many , I think particularly women who have a history of trauma, won't be a true "alcoholic". It's a very lazy, all encompassing and self sabotaging label ) and believing you're "powerless" and can't "trust your own thinking" and have to run your every thought past a self appointed "sponsor" who will be an equally, if not more damaged person is quite frankly dangerous (and I don't use that word lightly) vulnerable people, especially women are being further exploited and damaged. I with I had the power to do more to expose this truth be told. Once you've labelled yourself an "alcoholic" all society sees is a hopeless drunk who just can't get enough of booze and they have no idea what to do with this "other" type of human. So chuck them towards AA behind a closed door.

Anyway, I digress further.

My advice to you is : stick with the line I advised you above. Be firm but warm. Rinse and repeat. Don't fall down a hole of over explaining yourself. Don't make any accusations or try to find fault in their organisation (it won't go well. They'll have an answer for everything and the problem will always be turned into a "you" problem - arguing against a "cult" (my interpretation) is utterly futile)

The good news is - like any "cult" - they'll simply ex-communicate you. They'll want nothing further to do with you once you reject their organisation. Trust me, I know.

Once a self appointed "leader" "accidentally" called me some months after leaving. I answered the phone bright and breezy and obviously completely sober and was greeted with "well anyway this call was an accident so I'll hang up now". I'm certain that she was hoping to hear a drunk slurring on the phone and be satisfied that me leaving the organisation had resulted in a relapse. It helps their confirmation. I do know that members feel very insecure and threatened by people confirming there's a way to overcome addiction or bad habits / problem drinking without AA. If you can imagine from their perspective someone has brainwashed them into thinking they need to attend daily meetings, turn all their power over to a sponsor and do this for the rest of their life else they'll drink and die , they have to believe it's true else it brings their whole life for the last however many years into question. There's plenty of victims in those rooms as well as the power hungry narcissists. Keep that in mind.

This lady you're talking about doesn't sound mentally healthy. Take the moral high ground and have some sympathy in your heart. But you do not owe her an explanation other than a confident statement.

Also, there is further reading on AA and it's downfalls, orange papers, a couple of books. But what I will say is they're very "American" and clearly (as angry damaged people would of course!) have an axe to grind. I don't always think falling down a rabbit hole of hatred is good for your mental health.

I'd chalk this down to experience but you must find some tools to live your life in a healthy way now. I actually used "I can't ever go back there " (AA) as a Springboard to make sure I stay as mentally healthy as I can. The thought of ending up back in AA terrified me more than drinking again. That alone was enough to stop me even thinking about alcohol.

Truthfully though, once you get in a good place (and it may take you years - it did me ) the old "coping mechanism" becomes redundant as you simply no longer need it.

Sorry for the assignment!!!

@PearPineappleApplePen My goodness I agree if there was ever a reason to give up any kind of addiction it's to escape this cult. I'm totally with you there. Lucky fir me I like proving people wrong. I have a feeling that they tell pretend everyone who has "gone back out there" (as they call it) has relapsed and that leader who phoned you would have definitely would not have wanted you to be doing well hence her escape tactic sentence. Very sinister really!

Yes and I noticed that the other day, like you say every time before they speak they say their name and alcoholic. Urgggghh not for me. That will not be an identity of my choosing.

Also the them versus us normies versus alchoholics. It's all repeated language and they have said I'm one of them.

As for the sponsorship I have been voicing my concern over this and saying but these people aren't qualified. I'm sorry, but I would never have let any of them near me. It's dangerous and that's not hyperbole.
Do they not realise how much you have to go through to be a QUALIFIED, VETTED therapist.
The pressure on me to get one was immense! They gave people in their early 20s sponsoring people too. Let me guess my concerns would be done kind of "character defect". More shaming language. Because traumatised people really need more shame don't they. Rolling eyes.

The therapy modality I like IFS calls them our parts and attributes no shame to them whatsoever.

I can't thank you enough for the help to extract myself! I sensed it would be futile to denigrate AA, and that it would be more useful to repeat a statement that you have helped me with.

I spoke to her today and she wanted to meet up as she wants me to hear all about her night of passion with the man who changes his mind every 5 mins and then she reads me out every text conversation. That's the other thing I want to concentrate on myself and my goals not be distracted by someone who is not doing this and sucking my time and energy away for utter toxicity.

I think I'm just going to message it to her kindly because quite honestly I've never wanted to be rejected so much in my whole life. I will update how it goes.

I hear you.

You're absolutely right about the language. I believe it's a tactic called "thought stopping slogans". (Often used in religion) .Just repeat the mantra. Don't ask questions. Any organisation that frowns upon asking questions is not a healthy one.

There is also no progression in AA. You never "graduate" and leave. It's all done under the guise of "helping the newcomer" - but actually it's a tactic to keep you there - trapped and subservient .When I first went into the rooms, it was well advertised that there was a "newcomer" amongst us. Everyone put on there best show of being happy, cheery, grateful etc. When I got to chat to some of these people more intently the mask slipped and I saw some very unhealthy, deeply unhappy and quite frankly bitter people. Bitterness was a strong theme. But of course they were, they'd never actually had therapy and good mental health care to treat their underlying issues once the alcohol was taken away!

Another alarming unadvertised practice Is the shunning of people who take medications to treat their mental health conditions or seek additional therapy/ AA alternatives as well as the meetings. This stuff sounds unbelievable but it actually does happen.

I do worry about the vulnerability - particularly of young women still being advised to go there.

Realistically what saved me is I'm in an allied medical profession and despite the fact at one time I was extremely desperate and vulnerable, and often felt torn wondering if they were right and it was all just my "character defects" talking, I thought "do you know what. Even if I don't trust my own thoughts because my self esteem is low right now. I do trust my medical training. That's fact. And this goes so far against anything I've ever been taught or practice and preach to others on a daily basis." And that's really why I'm One of the very lucky ones. Many people do not have the luxury of that background knowledge to reinforce their beliefs. I had to rely on that as I couldn't trust my inner voice at the time (reinforced by the AA dogma) I actually feel sad for myself for the 'abuse' I endured there- but even sadder that I can't openly criticise the cult organisation as it's still very frowned upon in general society.

Anyway, I've made this all about me and my experience in this post and the aim is to help you!

So the lady sounds as though she's using you as a soundboard for her own problems. Her clinginess and over sharing with someone new to AA says to me she is probably not a mentally well woman. No suprise really (see above !). I feel sorry for her, but that's not your problem. Part of my own healing was keeping my distance from "unhealthy" people/ people who are very negative/ people who thrive on drama. Peace and calm as I said before are the most beautiful thing. If you have those two things 50% of the time - you've won the lottery in life. Especially if you do suspect you have BPD- drama and chaos can really trigger symptoms.

I've kind of over shared myself now. I don't want to make it an AA bashing thread. But wanted to share light and hope that there is a way out. (Most of it does indeed come from within- only you really have the power) But get help for the bits that you realise you can't quite fathom out on your own, such as the C-PTSD.

Wishing you good luck.