Can’t cope with being a transphobe.

[genandtonic]

DD is trans and has been encouraged to move out and go no contact. I thought wearing boys stuff was cool, I’m just not entirely sure testosterone is a good idea. We have been vilified by the school, Friends seem to think they should take sides against me. No one is looking at the real problems underneath.
I thought I was coping, but it’s driving a rift between me and DH and now DS is acting odd.
we desperately need a break and are too stressed to sort it -
My little world is collapsing around me and I now can’t cope. Help!

It actually doesn't matter what I think. OP's child is an adult and is making the choice regardless of whether OP likes it or not. The only choice OP has is whether to remain in their child's life or not.

This is naive.

This is not necessarily true at all.

Whether OP believes that their child is making a good decision or not isn't actually relevant. The OP isn't in a position to change it. OP has made their point to the child that they don't agree with it, the child is continuing anyway and isn't going to change their mind.

If the child does later regret it and comes back to say "Why didn't you challenge me?" OP can say, "I did." If OP continues now to push this issue and the child is happy with their decision, OP won't have to say anything because her child will not be in her life any more.

As I said, I've got no interest in changing your mind, I'm being pragmatic. Even if the issue was, "My child has joined a cult and I keep telling them to leave the cult, they said that if I don't accept their choice they will cut me off, what should I do?" I'd say the same thing. You don't have to be overjoyed they joined a cult, but they're not going to leave because you want them to, so you can accept that they are in the cult or you can sever the relationship. (Most cults don't allow you to maintain contact with non-cult members anyway but theoretically, I'd be worried if my daughter joined a cult and would let her know my concerns, but I'd still not want to be NC with her because of it.)

You are not alone - sadly there are so many parents in this position, it is just impossible fuelled by others who have no idea what the reality it. It is different when it is your child and these children and teens are being influenced and manipulated by others. I think the best thing is to try and steer a middle course in the hope that this will be just a phase and she will grow out of it.

Agree with @MrsSunshine2b .

Even if you think its a cult, and even if you think your child’s body modifications are a bad idea or based on a fallacy if you aren’t in a position to kidnap and deprogram them Then patience, acceptance, keeping the door open, and love are the only options.

Adult children have been leaving home to find themselves, surgically alter themselves, pit themselves in battle, risk their lives and safety for ever. You don’t agree with their aesthetic or their goal and you fear for them. Ok

But literally all you can do is keep lines of communication open.

Actually it is relevant.

But you don't want to listen.

Some of us have walked this path...

The abuse that has been levelled and justified and minimised as part of 'keeping communication open' isn't necessarily helpful.

There are also elements which have parallels with drug addiction. Validation and medicalisation being the addiction.

Just going along with it, is as bad as being your child's dealer in some situations because it fuels the problem and makes it worse.

You're making assumptions that I haven't also walked this path.

One of my children is non-binary and we support them/her, they are doing fine and we have a good relationship with them. That's our choice. If as an adult, they decide the get body modifications, we would be concerned about the medical/health implications of this but we would still support them, just as we would if one of our children decided they wanted a nose job or a boob job. We'd tell them we thought they were beautiful as they were but ultimately respect their own decision for their body.

The decision that we made to unequivocally support our NB child has been the correct one and I'm very glad we made it. The choice OP makes is up to her.

It’s so sad. Very young adults thinking they can change gender by simply popping testosterone inside them.

It’s just not that easy. It’s dangerous.

When young you think you’re invincible. The problem is when she reaches her late 30s, 40s and beyond what the hell will her body be doing after being messed around with testosterone?

It will kill her bone density. And god knows what else and what other problems she stores up for the future.

It’s not just about now. All these kids think so short term. Like their mental health now is the only thing that matters.

But what of their physical health and mental health further down the line.

They are so brainwashed unable to see the risks long term.

It doesn't matter to OP, but I was interested, as you had thought it mattered enough to post on OP's thread.

You're uncomfortable answering, so no worries, you can just say so.

It's not a case of being uncomfortable answering, it's a case of not actually caring enough to have this debate with you. You can think what you want and I'm not going to try and change your mind. There are a million threads of people trying to defend the reasons why they don't accept trans people on Mumsnet, I have way better things to do than argue with all of them.

The answer is that I believe that trans men- who might still have a female body- are men, and that trans women- who might still have a male body- are female, and if they want to change their body to align with that, that is their choice. You can disagree with that if you like, I'm not going to waste my time arguing.

I am posting on OP's thread because they are clearly unhappy with the fact that they are losing their family and friends over this issue. I don't think I'm going to change their mind, I'm just being honest about the fact I don't think they are going to change their child's mind either, so it looks like they are going to have to choose between their deeply held conviction that their child is a woman, and their child, who has a deeply held conviction that they are a man.

I don't personally care what OP thinks about trans people.

The answer is that I believe that trans men- who might still have a female body- are men, and that trans women- who might still have a male body- are female

That's not the answer, because it's not what I asked. You changed it.

I didn't want you to argue, i wanted you to be honest. That's all I ever want in these discussions and it rarely happens.

Does being a boy, or a man, have anything to do with having a male body?

I don't think OP is even that bothered about who is 'right'.

This is akin to belief. It's fine for two people to have different beliefs. OP is not asking her daughter to do anything. OP is not doing anything to her daughter.

The problem is that OP's DD is in coercive relationship where she has been encouraged to cut off her family.

I don't think I understand your question. I've said that I don't think every person who is a boy has a boy's body and that if they want to change it so they look on the outside how they feel on the inside, they should be able to do that.

Most men have a male body but not all of them do.

So yes, having a male body is usually correlated with being a man, so it does have something to do with being a man. It's not the only factor though, imo.

If OP's beliefs about this are more important to her, she's entitled to choose those.

On this point, we might have stumbled on the answer. Is a belief something you can choose?

Or is it something that you know like the earth is round, humans cannot change sex, etc.?

I don't believe in God. If my child said I must believe in God to have any relationship with them, I couldn't do it. I can't make myself believe something that I don't. It's not possible. I would say, I'm happy for you to believe what you want but I cannot believe it myself. And I would expect the same from them. This is what tolerance and respect is.

Maybe that's the problem. This is why it's like a cult. If you refuse to believe then you are cut off.

How can being male be a factor in being a man, if you can also be not-male and be a man? What is another factor?
I genuinely don't understand this!

People of either sex are men, people of either sex are women, so being male doesn't make you one or the other - does it?

I've said that I don't think every person who is a boy has a boy's body

Of course they have a boy's body if they are a boy? If someone identifies as a boy then by definition, the body they have is a boy's body. Or did you mean 'male body' and were using the words 'boy' and 'male' interchangeably?

I don't think I'm going to get a coherent answer, so I'll leave it there.

I posted because I didn't understand why it was transphobic to say 'you don't need to look male to be a man, you're fine as you are' and not transphobic to say 'your body is wrong because you don't look male'.

I still don't! But best of luck navigating this OP and anyone else going through it.

@MrsSunshine2b

’Most men have a male body but not all of them do. ’

so….what is a man, then ( not in the sense of using ‘man’ to represent mankind)?

How do you define a man? If the answer is ‘ because the person who is ‘a man’ thinks they/ he is’ that is just meaningless non definition, it is circular. So if ‘thinking/ believing’ is the definition, if I think I am a non human , for example, a cat , am I?

Though as we have seen, that is possibly too current a query.

I think I've been quite clear that I'm not interested in arguing or debating about this. I don't care about changing your mind. I was asked a question and so I answered it.

You could accept that she believes in God and not continually tell her she's wrong and there is no God though.

You could accept that she believes in God and not continually tell her she's wrong and there is no God though.

That's not what I said. Here it is again.

"I would say, I'm happy for you to believe what you want but I cannot believe it myself."

I've never experienced a trans person telling me that I have to become trans. The only thing I've experienced is trans people asking that other people respect their identity, not that they change their own. If someone says to me "I am one of God's children," or something like that, I wouldn't say "No you aren't because I don't believe in God so you can't be!" I'd just accept that that is how they view themselves. It's not worth falling out over imo.

If someone says to me "I am one of God's children," or something like that, I wouldn't say "No you aren't because I don't believe in God so you can't be!"

Again, not what I said. Here it is

"I would say, I'm happy for you to believe what you want but I cannot believe it myself."

Yeh I wouldn't say that either, I'd just say nothing because you don't have to interject with your opinion and let someone know that you don't believe what they believe every time they mention it. If I was trans I wouldn't care if deep down you don't believe I'm the gender I say I am, but I wouldn't be interested in hearing about what you think about my gender, I'd just expect you to use respectful language around me, just in the same way I don't swear in front of my Mum because she doesn't like it.