To be sad that someone can’t be themselves?

[ImpeckableChicken]

Didn’t know which topic to put this in so I do apologise!

A close relative recently confided in me that he likes to dress up in ladies clothes. He is pensioner age, married 40+ years, 1 adult daughter and grandchild.

His wife found out years ago and told him to pack it in and threatened to tell their daughter.

He still does it in secret, and has said if he were younger he would consider transitioning.

He has terrible mental health issues and it’s made me wonder if it’s because he’s never been able to be himself?

I’m a problem solver and a part of me wants to say to him ‘Fk them all! Be yourself!!’

BUT

It would be chaos. He fears his family would disown him, wife would leave and god knows how his daughter will feel.

It’s hard to watch and not do anything. Anyone been in a similar position?

Why does everyone always turn it into a sexual thing?? Maybe the majority are driven by the whole sexually excited kinky crap but maybe he just wants to be a woman….. do his hair nice, feel beautiful in his own body?? Maybe he feels more like a woman inside?

Everyone is different.

I did ask him if it was just a cross dressing thing or if he’d consider transitioning and he said if he were 20 years younger he’d probably do it. Surely that’s more of an identity thing rather than a kinky thing??

It’s interesting to get everyone’s views, thank you. Maybe I do see things in black and white, maybe I’m stupid and naive, but the older I get the more I see people unhappy with their lives and it makes me wonder if humans are just doomed to live sh*tty lives because they’re afraid of upsetting others and not going along with society’s ‘normal’

Why does everyone always turn it into a sexual thing?? Maybe the majority are driven by the whole sexually excited kinky crap but maybe he just wants to be a woman….. do his hair nice, feel beautiful in his own body?? Maybe he feels more like a woman inside?

What are you on about? Let's assume for a second that for him the cross dressing isn't sexual. You, OP, are a woman I assume. Are you all nice hair, and feeling beautiful in your body?
Many (most?) women aren't.
So, if this chap feels happy, for whatever reason, in women's clothes, I have no problem with that. But let's not pretend that clothes make him a "feel like" a woman. That's just silly, and rather sexist to boot.

I have no idea what it would feel like to be a woman on the outside but feel like a man on the inside? But some people do.

I’d imagine if I felt that way and wanted to feel more comfortable in myself I would wear men’s clothes. Maybe cut my hair short, wear aftershave. And it wouldn’t be cus it’s a turn on. It would be cus I wanna be a guy.

Why can’t it be the same the other way round?

What does feeling like a woman even mean? I am one and I have no idea.

This man just likes wearing women's clothing. Doesn't make him a woman.

I don’t know 🙈 but there are people out there who don’t feel right in their own bodies so maybe we are the lucky ones who are comfortable in our own skin?

Sorry OP, if you start writing stuff like "maybe he wants to do his hair nice", then surely you too can see the problem we have here.
Is there anything stopping him growing his hair and investing his own time in brushing and caring for it if that's what you think he wants?
Why can't he be a long haired man. What is it exactly that as a man he cannot do? Cremes, body lotions and oils, different fabrics, there's nothing to stop a man having anything.

Why does everyone always turn it into a sexual thing?? Maybe the majority are driven by the whole sexually excited kinky crap but maybe he just wants to be a woman….. do his hair nice, feel beautiful in his own body?? Maybe he feels more like a woman inside?

His wife presumably isn't a lesbian though. She didn’t sign up to be married to a woman, did she? He's welcome to decide that dressing up in women's clothes is what he wants to do. She is very much within her rights to have nothing further to do with him. AGP is a common cause of late-onset transitioning, I believe. Just because he didn't tell you that is his motivation, that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't.

Well I might feel better in Margot Robbie's body, but I'm shorter and older than her and have a deep love of potatoes, so it isn't going to happen.

If he wants long hair, go for it. Wear what he wants to. But he is and will always be a man, and his wife can decide those habits are not something she wants to live with and I don't think she should have to lie to their daughter.

Of course, because mental illness is a real thing. If someone feels that the best way to deal with this issue is to impersonate the opposite sex then fine, that's their choice, but it's unhelpful to presume a partner will wish to carry on a relationship in this scenario, and also to expect the general public to not put in place certain boundaries.

Being trans is fine. Presuming partners to be supportive is not realistic. Not being honest about whether your cross dressing is a kink or due to dysmorphia is not doing anyone any favours.

Judgement from family and friends maybe? He is 70+, old fashioned generation. Men went to work, women stayed home, cooked and cleaned.

Even if he grew his hair long, used lotions etc the older members of the family would still be like…… wtf you doing.

But surely they'd be the same if he decided to cos play as a woman.

I’m not saying she should have put up with it. If she didn’t like it she should have ended the relationship.

Ideally if he truly wanted to live as a woman they should have split up, he’d be living his life as he wants and she wouldn’t be with someone who wanted to change their identity.

If my husband told me he liked to dress up as a lady I’d be gutted, but I’d tell him I couldn’t stay with him if it’s something he wanted to pursue. I wouldn’t say ‘well you stop doing that right now, bury your feelings so we can live the normal husband, wife and kids family life.’

I guess what I’m saying is of course she shouldn’t have to live with a possible trans person. But at the same time I feel sad he’s had to live his life as someone he’s not.

Being of that generation, did she actually have the resources to leave? I can see why she'd try to stamp down and continue if not. Which just leaves them both unhappy, which is sad.

Probably not.

The same generation that have been married 40 years and claim they’ve had a long and happy marriage but most of them have been cheated on, hurt etc. People today seem to find it easier to walk away.

Different time and a different way of living back then I suppose.

Oh sweet summer child.

Well yes, it was a different time. My dad (76) did not get on with the corporate working environment, requirement to play golf with the big bosses etc ( he once asked the CEO of Chrysler why on earth he'd want to waste his time doing that when invited to join for a game). So my mum earned the money, a decent wedge in a great career, and he became a house husband (he didn't consider that these views made him female, as they don't) and great encourager of his daughters rather than live a life he didn't want, and which would have made her's harder as he would have been unhappy. They decided together. But he wasn't pretending to be her, or anything like her, and she was equally as educated as him (post grad) and had options. I'm not sure if your friend's wife had the ability to leave. If dad had fancied putting on a frock and pretending to be a woman, mum would have whisked us three off with her to a good life. As also at 76, she is a fully fledged Terf. As, to be fair, is he.

This guy needs to work out whether LARPing as a woman is worth more than his family. I suspect his wife is just waiting it out for the will, to be fair.

He can be himself.
But that might mean his marriage is over and there are tensions in his relationship with his daughter. But plenty of people get divorced at this age.
He needs to decide how important this is to him and not see himself as a victim.

I have no idea what it would feel like to be a woman on the outside but feel like a man on the inside? But some people do.

Do they? Maybe don't believe everything other people tell you. Have some scepticism when implausible claims are made.

How would they know it's being a "woman" they feel like?

That is ridiculous - who even knows or cares who among their family and friends uses what lotion??? Do you? how? why?

How can a man possibly know what it feels like to "be a woman on the inside"?

I AM a woman and I couldn't tell you.

Anyone know?

I couldn't describe what being a woman feels like, because I have never been anything else for comparison.

It's all nonsense. When men say they feel like a woman inside, they mean they are sexually aroused by the thought of themselves as a woman. It's a fetish. If you want to indulge a man by participating in his sexual fantasy, then go ahead pretend he is a woman. Call him she/her Nancy, or whatever. It's up to you. I'm sure he will love it.

I wouldn't do it for a man I loved (not that I would love him much after he asked), never mind a work colleague, bloke in a shop or any other random man.

'Being coerced by his wife into a normal life.'

Fuck me.

She is within her rights to say "I'm not happy with this. It's sexist. It harms me." And then leave it up to him to decide which he'd rather have - her or the fetish.

This whole bullshit of 'why can't they just be themselves?' ALWAYS ignores the rest of the family and the impact on them.

It's not 'just like being gay'. It's asking others to indulge and enable a fantasy which isn't real. And that has implications.

Children who are asked to call their Dad 'Mum' have their childhood stolen and learn they aren't important. Their father is the dominant force and he is the most important person in the family and they are there to serve him.

Wives who are asked to treat their husband as a wife, lose their own identities and self worth. They suddenly asked to become 'lesbians' - when that isn't their sexual attraction.

Let me make this clear: we all have individual identities and we are free to choose those to a point. But we also have relational identities which are hugely important to our well being and sense of self.

If someone decides they want to change their relational identity, it's not just about them. And it's not cost free.

There was a very old study by one of the older trans support groups which looked at the impact on wives. It found that about half the wives had psychological breakdowns. That's a pro trans group saying that.

Yet all the focus is on 'the poor husband'. Partly because the stigma for wives to be honest about this is so much greater than it is even for the husbands. And this has got WORSE not better with this fawning attitude to men in this situation.

The men LIED to their wives before marriage. They had choices but didn't respect their wives enough to be honest. Thus putting THE WIFE into the coerced position as she had absolutely no agency and wakes up one day to be told she must deal with this. If she had been informed she may have made different life choices.

Not only this but there is very clear evidence that there are distinct groups of trans people but they are all lumped together in one group. Disphoria tends to manifest earlier. The late transitioning makes are different and it's much more likely there is a sexualised element to it. If it were about disphoria why does it start with underwear as redefining themselves.

Reading about the experiences of family members talking freely about how destructive it is to their own identities and sense of worth. As well as much own experiences, I ran out of fucks to give many years ago in terms of calling out this 'true authentic self' nonsense.

It's bullshit. Maintaining a fantasy for someone else is psychologically harmful. It sexist, homophobic and often abusive in the way it centres the trans people to the total exclusion of everyone else. There are massive safeguarding and legal ramifications too - it's not just about 'being nice'.

Most people want to be nice. I wanted to be nice. I came to the conclusion that it wasn't nice to ask them to ignore reality and surrender to the belief of 'wrong body'. Would we say to someone disabled they were born in the wrong body? Would we say it to someone non-white? No. Why wouldn't we.

If there are mental health issues we don't make them better by saying yes you are right to be depressed and affirming it. We confront issues and challenge them. We don't enable them.

The 'why can't we all be nice and accepting and sing cum by ahh' crowd are staggeringly naive and ignorant. It's not possible to do this without harming someone. The question for me is then, who gets harmed? And does it actually solve the issues of the trans person concerned?

So much of transactivism is actually not in the interests of trans people themselves. To the point it's actually heartbreaking.

To be sold the lie that you can change sex and your life will be amazing and much better is just dishonest.

Life is a series of difficult questions where there are only imperfect answers.

I do not believe that letting blokes like the one in the OP transition and be 'their true authentic self' would necessarily make them happy, yet that's what they phrase implies. A magic solution to unhappiness. Anyone spouting it, should be challenged.

Life is very rarely that simple. I wish it was. But it's not. So there you go. Shove 'be kind' up your arse and join us in the real world thanks.

This is bollocks.

Being a woman isn't a feeling. This is sexist drivel. It's pseudo religious belief in souls.

You are either a man or a woman. You can be stereotypically feminine or masculine regardless. These are gender stereotypes. This is culture. It's not something that is innate.

And it doesn't stop you being male or female. Even post surgery.

It's unhelpful to keep pushing this idea that being a woman or a man is a feeling based on stereotypes. That's sexism.

And in many cases homophobic to boot.

What Red said.

Are you very new to this whole debate, @ImpeckableChicken ?

I’m a woman. I don’t know what it’s like to ‘feel like a woman inside’ because I just AM a woman. I have short hair. I don’t wear ‘pretty’ skirts and I very rarely wear make-up. Most people would say I dress in a ‘masculine’ way - t-shirts, sweaters, jeans. But I am indubitably a woman and I always will be. Nothing can ever change that.

And as for he’s kept this secret a long time, been coerced into living a ‘normal’ life by his wife. His wife is very dependent on him, he drives her everywhere, he was the main earner up to retirement - do me a favour.

Tell me who had this big compulsion/fetish and yet decided to keep it a total secret, court a woman, marry her, have children with her, all while continuing to dress in secret, only at some point to reveal his fetish once she’s well and truly trapped? Then - then! - when they reach pensionable age and his wife is facing her later years of financial vulnerability, he hits her with the bombshell that he wants to reveal his fetish to the world.

Slow handclap for the poor man.

Too late in his case obvs but if that’s how you feel and you know it, don’t get married. Don’t have children. Don’t involve them and your wife in your issues. Be a grown-up.

(And btw, it’s interesting that a couple of posts on this thread have inadvertently used the term ‘trans-man’ to refer to this man. Given the discussion around how many people unused to this debate haven’t fully recognised the (deliberately) confusing terminology, I find that worthy of note. A man who’s transitioning would be a transwoman).