Attempted suicide - Blame

[Nimbus1999]

If you were married to a cold, unloving, uncaring person and you attempted suicide, are they to blame? Are they guilty of attempted manslaughter?

I genuinely thought time apart would be beneficial. To regroup. To both have counselling. To have joint marriage counselling. To have space from each other. But as he was depressed, I think perhaps it was the worse thing I could have done. He was happy at first but then it spiralled.

You were not, are not, and will never be responsible for his choice that day.
He is weaponising his choice to keep you stuck in the cycle.
The Freedom Programme and counselling are both excellent ideas. Good luck going forward 🌺

I didn’t for a second think you did @Nimbus1999, I was trying to show you that he had/has agency over his own choices.

You tried to help him more than most would but ultimately there wasn’t a compromise you could both agree on that would’ve allowed you both to move forward. Your decision to separate is as much a result of his choices as it is yours. You are both utterly entitled to make your own decisions whether they make someone else happy or not.

You really tried to work with him, you weren’t (and still aren’t) obliged to only make choices that serve him and his mental health. It was a kindness on your part that you ever did and his expectation that you shouldn’t ever withdraw that kindness is wrong and manipulative. Your kindness shouldn’t ever be given at any cost to your own mental health, the fact he’s got you believing that it even possibly should have is evidence of his manipulation and utterly self absorbed view of reality. He’s not even given consideration to the consequence of his actions on others. Maybe he doesn’t care or is overwhelmed by the reality of his actions, I don’t know him but either way none of this lands at your feet. None of it.

Thank you xx

Ethical and legal blame are different. I’m a lawyer. Making you feel unloved and not being a good partner are ethically wrong and could be a reason for the attempted suicide, and they are morally possibly to blame particularly if they entered into the relationship knowing you’re vulnerable. For it to be attempted murder (I’m not sure attempted manslaughter is a thing because you need intent for an attempt and intent is not an element of manslaughter) you’d need a positive action like physical harm. Incitement to suicide (“I wish you’d just kill yourself properly”) or assistance to commit suicide are crimes but under the Suicide Act 1961.

Making you feel unloved and not being a good partner are ethically wrong and could be a reason for the attempted suicide, and they are morally possibly to blame particularly if they entered into the relationship knowing you’re vulnerable.

Not a lawyer, but is the above not rather subjective and could be used by a controlling partner like ops sounds?
"You are ethically wrong as I feel unloved, you are not a good partner! To make me feel loved you MUST... stop seeing friends/wearing make up/ having social media"?
The only (very sad) reason behind a suicide is that someone has decided to end their life and no one else should ever have to shoulder blame for this.

Unless you are talking about murder disguised as suicide (such as physical pain torture like burning/flaying alive and offering a cyanide tablet to end it), no one is ever responsible for another person's suicide attempt.

Excluding a rational decision to end life because of terminal incurable illness, all suicide and suicide attempts are an indication of mental illness. No autonomous adult can hold another person responsible for their suicide attempt because they are mentally unwell.

A

No one is ever, ever responsible for someone else's suicide. It is always a choice.
If a person is severely mentally ill it may not be a capacitous choice but then it is the fault of their illness and not of any other person.
This is a classic ploy of abusive men (maybe some women too) to threaten or even attempt suicide to control their partners
It is very good that you are getting out of this relationship and seeing it now for what it was. Do not allow him to continue to hold this over you.

The phrases he used 'you are guilty of attempted manslaughter' 'you attempted to kill me' are barn door manipulation and emotional abuse.
I would 100% push back on that and calmly state 'No. You are responsible for your own choices'.
Think of all the other choices he could have made; speak to his GP or MH team, call a helpline, go to A&E, even call an ambulance. Either he was too unwell to do those things or he chose not to. In no way was any of that your fault.
You mention that you have children. You acted to protect them and that should always be your first priority and indeed his if he is their father.
You have done the right thing. Never let him suggest otherwise. Even for his own sake he will not be able to improve his mental health whilst he is busy blaming you for it.

This. Your posts are making me angry on your behalf because he's such a manipulative bastard.

I'm glad you're away from him and are divorcing.

You'd definitely benefit from counselling.

You are NOT to blame for his suicide attempt. He is. He's also responsible for his decision to be abusive towards you.

💐

He's a dick and never planned on killing himself. It was a calculated move to control you. Keep note of his communications and comments about ruining you or similar.
You have nothing to be guilty about. When you finally stood up to him he pulled out his final control move. F*CK HIM.

Attempting suicide and blaming a partner is a classic strategy of abusers, with mine he would threaten to kill himself and tell me it would be my fault and would make sure everyone knew it was my fault.

Is there any way you can get out of the situation you are in?

Sorry I worded my post badly. I meant that making someone feel unloved and that leading to a suicide attempt are possibly ethical wrongs. Abuse and neglect are legal wrongs (but difficult to prove). You also have to have existing problems before you try to kill yourself over feeling unloved. You didn’t cause it, and you carry neither ethical nor legal responsibility.

But in any event he didn’t carry it out. The only possible legal wrong is incitement to suicide which is also impossible to prove and as far as I can tell didn’t happen.

No. As someone who has survived suicide attempts myself, those attempts have always and only ever been my own responsibility. Regardless of the life circumstances that drove me to it.

I don't want you to feel like am having a go @CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau but again the 'making someone feel unloved' is hugely subjective is it not?

I agree that it is the responsibility of the person who takes the decision to end their own life. I say this as someone who is grieving for their partner. We had a loving relationship.

Again, I’ve fallen foul of my own bad wording, sorry. Attempting suicide or threatening to can make someone feel unloved, I was thinking of that. The OP has been accused of that but I hope I was clear in my original post that her OH is being manipulative and insincere. I’m really sorry, I’ve written about half of my internal thought process and missed out the important bits!

'He's a dick and never planned on killing himself. It was a calculated move to control you. Keep note of his communications and comments about ruining you or similar.
You have nothing to be guilty about. When you finally stood up to him he pulled out his final control move. F*CK HIM.'
This

Going back to his blame being “abuse”. How would you define abuse? Is there a distinction between deliberately blaming someone to cause upset (which I can see is abuse) and someone who is unwell and truly believes what he is saying? If the latter, then surely he is medically unwell and perhaps it is not intentional to cause hurt?

You’re talking about capacity now which is a really murky area.

try replacing his suicide with a physical assault. He punches you in the middle of a depressive or psychotic episode. It’s arguable that he’s not responsible and unable to control his actions or genuinely believed you were a threat. The result is still that you’ve been physically hurt. After the fact and presuming he has gained some clarity he is still insisting that he was right to punch you even though it’s now clear you were no physical threat and his reaction was out of proportion to whatever dialogue you were both having. That’s essentially what he’s doing.

Don’t make excuses for him, he’s doing that himself. Even if he is driven by mental illness and believes what he is saying, how he is framing his own actions is fundamentally incorrect. You didn’t encourage him to make a suicide attempt, you didn’t block all other avenues he could’ve taken to resolve his own feelings, you simply decided you didn’t want to have a role in his life any longer which is your right. His reaction to that isn’t beyond his capabilities even with illness taken into consideration.

If he is saying things like "you are guilty of manslaughter" repeadly in front of others it's slander so you can call him on it. Tell him to refrain from saying it unless he has police report to evidence his claim.

When men attempt suicide, they are normally successful

His behavior is now abusive after he probably took a 'slight' overdose and called people before he finished taking everything

He's manipulative and you need to get away

You've done nothing wrong

100% this.

There is only one person who is responsible for suicide, and that is the person who takes their own life.

My qualifications for saying this are being a widow to suicide, and subsequently training as a suicide prevention counsellor.

I also get alarm bells with your post - is it possible that your partner is abusive towards you, OP?

Oh. I've now read all your posts properly OP.

Yes he was and still is being abusive towards you.

I know you say you are representing yourself but please do get yourself a support team in place. Legal advice, and women's aids advice too.

I would suggest going very low contact (through solicitors if possible) and grey rock with him.