Please or to access all these features

Mental health

Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have medical concerns, please seek medical attention.

to want to get off my antidepressants asap after this evening’s Panorama?

338 replies

GeraniumGirl · 19/06/2023 22:52

Anyone else feel the same after watching the programme tonight?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Annoyingnamechangerperson · 20/06/2023 02:26

I take sertraline for anxiety rather than depression but it is an anti depressant.
Before I took it I was so anxious all the time I got no joy out of life. Same when I’ve come off it slowly. I can function like an actual normal person when I take it. I don’t think that is placebo and even if it is I’m willing to take it anyway because of the massive impact it has on my life.

Fluffylittlepup · 20/06/2023 02:28

BitterAndTwistedChoreDodger · 20/06/2023 02:23

ADs have saved my life more than once, I am not against them. This just made me re-evaluate. Especially as I was given the original 'brain chemical imbalance' script.

Yeah, I was sold that too. We all were. The multimillion pound pharmaceutical industry loved that line.

Fluffylittlepup · 20/06/2023 02:33

Annoyingnamechangerperson · 20/06/2023 02:26

I take sertraline for anxiety rather than depression but it is an anti depressant.
Before I took it I was so anxious all the time I got no joy out of life. Same when I’ve come off it slowly. I can function like an actual normal person when I take it. I don’t think that is placebo and even if it is I’m willing to take it anyway because of the massive impact it has on my life.

You see, I get this and I’m glad you get benefit from it. It’s when it’s prescribed indiscriminately that I have a problem. Some people should not be given these drugs - they have a very serious affect. And some people can take them but don’t need them, not for the long term.

The long term SERIOUSLY needs to be considered.

LonginesPrime · 20/06/2023 02:34

sadly many gps aren’t interested in getting you off meds, they receive monetary subsidies for keeping people on them

Surely GPs should still be conducting periodic medication reviews if they're continuing to prescribe the meds over several years, though?

I realise I'm very fortunate to have a brilliant and very conscientious GP, but what are these GPs thinking by refusing to review a patient who's requesting a years-overdue medication review?

Nicecow · 20/06/2023 02:34

GeraniumGirl · 19/06/2023 22:58

That the evidence suggests that they are not much more effective than placebo and that the difficulty in stopping them and the extent of the associated withdrawal symptoms have been downplayed by the drug companies and the medical profession for decades.

Not surprised at all.

Fluffylittlepup · 20/06/2023 02:38

LonginesPrime · 20/06/2023 02:34

sadly many gps aren’t interested in getting you off meds, they receive monetary subsidies for keeping people on them

Surely GPs should still be conducting periodic medication reviews if they're continuing to prescribe the meds over several years, though?

I realise I'm very fortunate to have a brilliant and very conscientious GP, but what are these GPs thinking by refusing to review a patient who's requesting a years-overdue medication review?

You’re lucky to have a conscientious gp. You’d probably be surprised at the amount of patients that don’t. Sadly.

Mtande · 20/06/2023 02:41

@LonginesPrime LOL. The only medication review I had during the final five years of taking that shit was a pharmacist at Lloyds who was blatantly trying to fulfill his review quota. It went something like:

  • when was your last review?
  • five years ago
  • ok are you experiencing any side effects from your medication?
  • I'm three stone heavier than I was and I still feel really anxious all the time but I'm also quite tired so I don't say anything about it because I can't be arsed
  • ah right so I'll do you another thirty days
melinab · 20/06/2023 02:41

As someone who has been suffering from severe AD withdrawal for 4 years now I would say that you are not being unreasonable at all. I was prescribed the drugs in 2000 because I was anxious about picking a college major in the US and was told that I had a chemical imbalance so kept taking them for 19 years. Wanted to get pregnant and tapered over 5 months (from 20mg citalopram). No issues until I went from 5 to 0. Then all hell broke loose.

The first 4 months were an absolute nightmare that I could not have imagined in my worst nightmares - I couldn't sleep for more than 2 hrs a night and kept being jerked awake every 30 min or so. 4 years later can manage about 5 hrs a night uninterrupted sleep but still have wake up terrors every single day. Had intense nausea and dizziness. Ate pretty much only ginger cookies for the first 4 months. Had intense bursts of anger (I used to never get angry before), akathisia, would forget my words - had to take time off of work for months. Eventually reinstated 2.5mg and have been tapering since but very slowly - still on 0.43mg. The first year was still horrible but less so than the first 4 months and only this year have I been able to have a more or less normal life because I have stopped tapering. But still get weeks of intense fatigue out of nowhere (and it goes as away out of nowhere as well).

The crowd wisdom is that most people can taper (cut their dose) by 10% of their previous dose every 4 weeks but it has been much harder for me - I can do maybe 2-3 % a month and then take longer breaks.

I was super lucky that I saw a paper by Mark Horowitz, a doctor at UCL came around in the Lancet at the time when this first happened because I didn't have an idea what was happening to me - my GP said I was just anxious but this was a totally different beast. Here is Dr Horowitz's paper. GP's don't know and often disregard the patient experience. I had to take this paper to my GP (he then apologized - sadly he is retired now and they don't make GPs like they used to) https://markhorowitz.org/#:~:text=When%20I%20tried%20to%20come,dizziness%2C%20anxiety%20and%20low%20mood. Luckily he believed me and prescribed the liquid citalopram which allowed me to taper by small amounts. I am a medical professional (though not practicing at the moment) so he listened but I know lots of women who are not listened to and their withdrawal symptoms dismissed as anxiety etc. (the new word for hysteria).

I was also lucky to find this site: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/ which has been around for over a decade and has the experience of lots of people with AD withdrawal. They were the ones that told me to reinstate - they have advisors with experience (which was a tremendous help) and which helped alleviate my symptoms.

Whatever you do, please do not skip doses or alternate days - i.e. take your dose one day and skip the next. Lots of clueless GPs give that advice which causes kindling and makes thing worse. https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/27800-hypersensitivity-and-kindling/

Here is more info on Iriving Kirsch's work on the efficacy of antidepressants. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4172306/

Lots of people think that even if they are placebos they are OK but they are dangerous placebos - they increase suicidality in young people (see FDA Black Box warning), they cause sexual dysfunction. Citalopram causes prolonged QT syndrome which can cause sudden cardiac arrest (rare but happens) https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safety-and-availability/fda-drug-safety-communication-revised-recommendations-celexa-citalopram-hydrobromide-related#:~:text=Citalopram%20causes%20dose%2Ddependent%20QT,and%20confer%20no%20additional%20benefit., they increase risk of heart disease and early death etc. There are better placebos out there - magnesium (citrate/glycinate) is amazing; When ADs are compared to exercise, ADs are no better etc etc.

You need to decide whether you want to come off of these antidepressants but if you do please taper VERY VERY slowly - over years so that you do not suffer the way I did. People who taper very slowly (10% of previous dose a month) can have uneventful tapers. Citalopram comes in a liquid which you can further dilute (note the liquid version is 25% more potent gram for gram - says so on the leaflet but you can miss it).

More articles about ADs:
https://www.newsweek.com/2022/09/30/antidepressants-work-better-sugar-pills-only-15-percent-time-1744656.html

More on the chemical imbalance theory:
https://theconversation.com/chemical-imbalance-theory-of-depression-clearing-up-some-misconceptions-188921

Antidepressants in pregnancy almost double risk of autism in offsping:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2476187

Antidepressant withdrawal from both sides of the desk

Antidepressant withdrawal from both sides of the desk - Dr Mark Horowitz, MBBS PhD

I am a training psychiatrist, having done part of my training in Australia and now working in London as a Clinical Research Fellow in the NHS and an Honorary

https://markhorowitz.org/#:~:text=When%20I%20tried%20to%20come,dizziness%2C%20anxiety%20and%20low%20mood.

Mtande · 20/06/2023 02:43

Fluffylittlepup · 20/06/2023 02:38

You’re lucky to have a conscientious gp. You’d probably be surprised at the amount of patients that don’t. Sadly.

Who the fuck even has a GP, these days? I really don't think I do. If I manage to get a face to face appointment it's just some locum. I think it's all locums at the surgery I'm registered with.

Fluffylittlepup · 20/06/2023 02:43

Brilliant post Melinab, thank you.

Fluffylittlepup · 20/06/2023 02:44

Mtande · 20/06/2023 02:43

Who the fuck even has a GP, these days? I really don't think I do. If I manage to get a face to face appointment it's just some locum. I think it's all locums at the surgery I'm registered with.

The nhs is up for being broken purposely.

Mtande · 20/06/2023 02:46

Well, the NHS has done me little service.

Break it.

Fluffylittlepup · 20/06/2023 02:50

Mtande · 20/06/2023 02:46

Well, the NHS has done me little service.

Break it.

Same here. With regards to my cptsd anyway. However, I need them for other ailments, as do lots of parents with ill children and old people with old ailments, it’s easy to say screw the nhs but what about those who can’t afford private treatment. What about those who need a sick note for time off work or benefits? We can’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

Blackbyrd · 20/06/2023 02:56

Anti depressants are massively over prescribed for pain relief. A cheap and easy cop out for GPs and consultants.

LadyH846 · 20/06/2023 03:00

GeraniumGirl · 19/06/2023 22:58

That the evidence suggests that they are not much more effective than placebo and that the difficulty in stopping them and the extent of the associated withdrawal symptoms have been downplayed by the drug companies and the medical profession for decades.

I wish I could have seen that (I'm overseas.)

My experience trying to come off the AD mirtazapine...

Several months of withdrawal symptoms and the first 6 weeks were horrendous. I couldn't work. I was only on them for 2 years. No-one told me when I went on them just how hard it would be to get off and that I'd have to take time off work.

I've heard it said by a psychiatrist that they believe that these are the most habit forming drugs in existence, based on what they have seen people go through coming off them.

It's also interesting reading comments from former opiate addicts who say that coming off opiates was easier than trying to come off their AD. This was on reddit threads

Fluffylittlepup · 20/06/2023 03:01

Let’s consider this option - gps are periodically reviewed instead of the patient being reviewed on their meds.

I’m sure this happens. The gps with the highest output of meds gets championed.

Facts of life, unfortunately.

Mtande · 20/06/2023 03:02

Kids and old people get treated readily enough even in the "omigosh but you lose your house if you get sick" USA system that we are (bizarrely) threatened with having foisted on us every time we criticise the sainted health system we have here. Incidentally people on low wages do also, in a much speedier and more effective fashion than here in the UK. Can't see as the switch would do me personally any more harm than the NHS has already visited on me.

melinab · 20/06/2023 03:03

The insulin comparison is a common pharma line but insulin and ADs are NOT alike at all. Without insulin you would actually die within days if you were diabetic. Insulin helps you digest carbs, the mechanism of action is very clear. ADs are better than placebo in 15% of people. Insulin is effective in 100% of people. Covid vaccine initial trials showed 96% effectiveness (not sure what the current ones are saying). This is an easy to read paper that shows the efficacy of ADs https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4172306/ Here is an excerpt:

"More important, in both analyses, the mean difference between drug and placebo was less than two points on the HAM-D. The HAM-D is a 17-item scale on which people can score from 0 to 53 points, depending on how depressed they are. A six-point difference can be obtained just by changes in sleep patterns, with no change in any other symptom of depression. So the 1.8 difference that we found between drug and placebo was very small indeed – small enough to be clinically insignificant."

Insulin has hardly any side effects, ADs lower your life expectancy, increase risk of cardiac death, cause sexual dysfunction in up to 50% of people who take them based on studies (look up PSSD). The things with the sexual dysfunction is that they are prescribed mostly to women and women don't talk about that stuff and women 'are not supposed to enjoy sex anyway'. ADs almost double risk of autism if taken in pregnancy, as well as cause cardiac abnormalities and severe withdrawal in babies. ADs increase risk of suicidality in young people (these clinical trial data were only released after a lawsuit against Pfizer for Paxil). They cause physical dependence and severe withdrawal symptoms. Withdrawal symptoms are often called relapse and the patient is kept on the ADs for decades (I was on them for 19 years!). If you'd like the academic papers and clinical trials happy to provide for each and every one of these side effect claims. People who have come off of heroin and ADs say that coming off of ADs was harder.

Most importantly, we have no clue how ADs work at all even if they do work in 15% of people. They don't correct a chemical imbalance because there is no chemical imbalance. An AD that lowers serotonin works exactly as well as an AD that increases serotonin. We are throwing chemicals with abandon at a very delicate organ - the brain and the nervous system.

ADs are prescribed mostly to women and about 25% of postmenopausal women in the UK have been prescribed ADs at least once. Are 25% of women 'crazy' or is it an easy way for GPs to shut women up.

Antidepressants and the Placebo Effect

Antidepressants are supposed to work by fixing a chemical imbalance, specifically, a lack of serotonin in the brain. Indeed, their supposed effectiveness is the primary evidence for the chemical imbalance theory. But analyses of the published data and...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4172306

Fluffylittlepup · 20/06/2023 03:06

LadyH846 · 20/06/2023 03:00

I wish I could have seen that (I'm overseas.)

My experience trying to come off the AD mirtazapine...

Several months of withdrawal symptoms and the first 6 weeks were horrendous. I couldn't work. I was only on them for 2 years. No-one told me when I went on them just how hard it would be to get off and that I'd have to take time off work.

I've heard it said by a psychiatrist that they believe that these are the most habit forming drugs in existence, based on what they have seen people go through coming off them.

It's also interesting reading comments from former opiate addicts who say that coming off opiates was easier than trying to come off their AD. This was on reddit threads

Did you know that Mirtazapine was originally intended to treat animals for lack of appetite?

melinab · 20/06/2023 03:09

Amytriptiline and nortryptiline which are commonly prescibed for pain are used without proper clinical trials.

There is no good clinical trial that shows that amytriptiline is better than placebo for migraines yet you need to fail amytriptiline before effective drugs can be prescribed for migraine on the NHS.

Fluffylittlepup · 20/06/2023 03:15

melinab · 20/06/2023 03:03

The insulin comparison is a common pharma line but insulin and ADs are NOT alike at all. Without insulin you would actually die within days if you were diabetic. Insulin helps you digest carbs, the mechanism of action is very clear. ADs are better than placebo in 15% of people. Insulin is effective in 100% of people. Covid vaccine initial trials showed 96% effectiveness (not sure what the current ones are saying). This is an easy to read paper that shows the efficacy of ADs https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4172306/ Here is an excerpt:

"More important, in both analyses, the mean difference between drug and placebo was less than two points on the HAM-D. The HAM-D is a 17-item scale on which people can score from 0 to 53 points, depending on how depressed they are. A six-point difference can be obtained just by changes in sleep patterns, with no change in any other symptom of depression. So the 1.8 difference that we found between drug and placebo was very small indeed – small enough to be clinically insignificant."

Insulin has hardly any side effects, ADs lower your life expectancy, increase risk of cardiac death, cause sexual dysfunction in up to 50% of people who take them based on studies (look up PSSD). The things with the sexual dysfunction is that they are prescribed mostly to women and women don't talk about that stuff and women 'are not supposed to enjoy sex anyway'. ADs almost double risk of autism if taken in pregnancy, as well as cause cardiac abnormalities and severe withdrawal in babies. ADs increase risk of suicidality in young people (these clinical trial data were only released after a lawsuit against Pfizer for Paxil). They cause physical dependence and severe withdrawal symptoms. Withdrawal symptoms are often called relapse and the patient is kept on the ADs for decades (I was on them for 19 years!). If you'd like the academic papers and clinical trials happy to provide for each and every one of these side effect claims. People who have come off of heroin and ADs say that coming off of ADs was harder.

Most importantly, we have no clue how ADs work at all even if they do work in 15% of people. They don't correct a chemical imbalance because there is no chemical imbalance. An AD that lowers serotonin works exactly as well as an AD that increases serotonin. We are throwing chemicals with abandon at a very delicate organ - the brain and the nervous system.

ADs are prescribed mostly to women and about 25% of postmenopausal women in the UK have been prescribed ADs at least once. Are 25% of women 'crazy' or is it an easy way for GPs to shut women up.

Great post again. Something else that isn’t mentioned when taking ADs is the effect on sleep. Particularly if you already have a large amount of serotonin (this is NOT looked at or considered) which causes awful sleep difficulties.

Serotonin syndrome is a VERY real thing, Some people sensitive to this will seriously struggle with ADs and, if they manage to get through that, will struggle enormously when they try to come off them. This is NEVER mentioned when gps put you on these meds. The ongoing line is “it can take time for your body to adjust”. NO! If your body is saying no to these meds, don’t take them!

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 20/06/2023 03:34

GeraniumGirl · 19/06/2023 23:54

There isn’t the same stigma attached to Diabetes as there is to mental illness though.

That supports Curlew's point. When someone has a physical illness, like asthma, we recognise that they need the medication to survive and we neither judge them for the illness nor for needing the meds. But for mental illness, some ignorant people consider the illness as a character failing and the medication as something that could be stopped if the patient just bucked their ideas up / snapped out of it / insert condescending tripe here.

allswellthatends · 20/06/2023 03:40

I’ve been on a variety of ADs for the past 20 years and once posted here that they saved my life and my marriage. Which is true, but I am still not sure they have been so good for me. I stay on them because they are good for my children, not because they are so good for me.

For one thing, I find they don’t really make me less depressed. They just make me feel everything less. I appreciate this, since many of the feelings I have are so dire I would much rather not feel at all. They also seem to make me less likely to get angry and shout. This is good for everyone I interact with, not only my children and husband but innocent sales clerks, fellow drivers, etc. Not so sure it’s good for me.

On ADs, I don’t feel happy feelings any more strongly than I feel bad ones. I am very dopey: sleepy all the time, and also lethargic in the sense of not wanting to do things: I get nothing done more than the basics, shopping for food, cooking – and even that takes huge effort. I was once so organised, I had hobbies, my photo albums were up-to-date, I tried new recipes all the time, I played with my clothes, I wrote to friends and family at length and often. I do none of that now. I gained more than 2 stone in my first 6 months on ADs; I got stretch marks, which didn’t happen when I was pregnant. I need to sleep at least 14 hours a day – need to: if I don’t, I’m physically exhausted. I have no sense of excitement or invention.

I think that ADs are prescribed by doctors because they have nothing else to offer, since it is so expensive to get psychiatrists privately and so impossible to get any time on the NHS. (And this is NOT the fault of the doctors, who sincerely want to help.)

But then I have similar misgivings about talking therapies too. For one thing, talking to a professional seems like just a way to compensate for not having anyone in my life I can trust enough to talk honestly. I don’t think this is unusual in me. Very few people have such family and friends that they can talk gloomily and grumpily to them for months or years and still hope to be friends. Women especially are socialised to be upbeat and cheery. I’ve noticed that British women, while they bond over seeming to complain, still “complain” in a cheerful voice and about small things – “Oh, isn’t it so hot!” “Oh these toddlers – I can’t even go to the loo alone” kind of small talk. Not real talk.

I also think that the main function of ADs and therapists is too often to make it possible for us to function without acting out feelings that are sometimes quite legitimate. For example, with a disabled child, I have many (female) friends with disabled children. We moan (British word, so much more innocent than “grieving”) jokingly about how this one won’t eat anything but white food for years on end, or that one ended up in hospital just before our we were hoping to go on our first family holiday in years, but we never say things like: I am so angry. This is so unfair, I did nothing to deserve this load. I have to take whatever appointment I can drag out of the NHS for my child no matter how bad the timing or location. I cannot feel part of the wider world of mothers and children because we are different and perhaps scary to others; when my child acts up, I feel ashamed that other people blame them, and sure that they blame me for bad parenting. I am afraid my child’s life will become more and more miserable as they get older and recognise their own difference from their peers. They are so lonely, but they must stay lonely because how can they marry and have children? I am afraid I will never get any life of my own because I am stuck being a carer forever. Sometimes I blame my child for this. Then I blame myself, because I know they didn’t choose to be disabled. And maybe it IS my fault they’re disabled; maybe I did do the wrong thing in pregnancy, or early motherhood, or yesterday. We do not say these things, because if we did we would have to start screaming, or rioting in the streets.

I do think CBT, which I tried several times, is a bit back to front. It’s not that I’m depressed because I tend to engage in catastrophic thinking; I imagine trouble coming my way BECAUSE I’m depressed. And also, because my life has shown me that it’s logical to expect trouble: I was raped by a fellow student; I had years and years of infertility; I have a disabled child and also care for aging parents with dementia. And my husband tells me I’m “morbid” when I suggest we need to put Advance Decisions and Powers of Attorney in place. In fact, repeated studies have shown that people diagnosed as “depressed” (even if they have simpler histories than mine) tend to forecast more accurately than so-called healthy people.

Not to mention which, CBT seems to me to have an element of blaming the victim. Look, you’re depressed because you don’t know how to think right! You have failed to think right! We will teach you how to think right, like everyone around you, and then everything will be fine! The problem isn’t that mortgage rates are rising and real incomes are plunging, it is that you are no good at living life like everyone normal! Here, have a pill or a few hours' attention and there will be no more sexism in the world, no more racism, no more unpredictability or injustice – the problem was not reality, it was you all along!

I sometimes look around me at my fellow-women and think that we are all spending a huge amount of time drugging ourselves so we don’t start screaming. Women are disproportionately likely to be using ADs. Botox is also more and more common, and has been proven to reduce actual feelings of anger by preventing women from frowning. How can we turn the world upside down if we are putting all our energies into not feeling angry about the unfairness of the real world around us? My husband had an affair or two and I didn’t throw him out, I talked firmly but calmly about it and we got past it. This is for the best, because I have no income and three children, one quite disabled, but it does also let him off the hook, doesn’t it?

So my thinking brain tells me all this. But I don’t want to listen to my thinking brain, let alone my feeling brain. I have children. I cannot mess around. I am not likely to come off ADs anytime soon, because in the end I think protecting their happiness is more important than my own. This attitude may indeed be part of the reason I’m depressed – because my own happiness is not a priority to me – but I still believe that it is the deal I made when I chose to have children.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 20/06/2023 03:42

Without insulin you would actually die within days if you were diabetic.

Have you ever attempted suicide? I have. I have the residual current detector at the Co-op I was working at to thank for my life. And that wasn't the first time. I wasn't on meds then. I am now. I haven't made an attempt since I was put on citalopram.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 20/06/2023 03:49

@allswellthatends You are absolutely correct about the positivity delusion that afflicts most people. Read Smile Or Die by Barbara Ehrenreich for more about that. Depression is a perfectly reasonable response to the world we live in, especially as women. You mentioned rape, yeah, what woman would be happy in a world where 6% of men will do that and six in seven victims are female?