to want to get off my antidepressants asap after this evening’s Panorama?

[GeraniumGirl]

Anyone else feel the same after watching the programme tonight?

@melinab thank you so much that is so so helpful. I’m so sorry you’ve had such a rough time . I think if my hot flashes stay gone I might try and taper very very slowly in the autumn as hopefully that means the chemical anxiety will be lessened - I’ve always noticed pre medication that when my flashes were bad my anxiety also spiked.

‘A friend told me years ago that research showed other things such as a daily 20-minute walk (I forget the other examples) were as effective at treating depression’

Many people going to the doctor with depressive symptoms would be outraged if their GP or psychiatrist told them to go for a walk rather than giving them a prescription, and would complain.

The best way to come off antidepressants is the way that works for you. Whether that’s gradually reducing, alternate days, stopping over one month or six. And I have met people who just stopped too and are fine.

Being informed and aware of withdrawal symptoms though is crucial. And where the medical profession often fails.

People always let their own experiences colour their view but each person has their own successful method for stopping antidepressants.

’I wanted to have a baby and I knew they doubled risk of autism and some heart abnormalities’

Please everyone do not take the autism comment as fact. It is far from proved and it should not stop pregnant women taking antids if they need them for their mental health.

The heart issue is pretty rare and causes temporarily breathing difficulties which usually self-resolve in a day or two. The paeds team needs to be aware so as to monitor the baby post-birth.

But most women who take anti ds have healthy babies. And the worst thing for a baby is a mum with severe PND so antids should not be stopped lightly.

Even if it was proven fact, that idea that women would endanger their own mental health, and indeed lives because suicide is a risk, to prevent their baby from being born autistic like me makes me pretty pissed off.

Nothing quite says "we hate women" and "we hate autistics" as much as putting women's lives at risk to stop autistics from being born.

Autism is not a death sentence FFS.

I'm on sertraline, without it my ocd and anxiety would be out of control. I feel calm and can rationalise my thoughts.

I was put on fluoxetine for a few months and that really fucked my head up, I was so anxious more than every before, I was convinced I would be attacked in the street.

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia Stopping ADs because I wanted to not increase the risk of autism in my child was my decision and MINE ONLY. Studies show that for every 100 women on ADs there are 2 extra kids born with autism even when adjusting for other issues such as maternal depression. There are studies that only track after AD in the second and third trimester and find non-significant effects. I have researched this and looked at the evidence extensively and I am convinced of this result. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26660917/

Other people may look at the evidence and decide differently for themselves. But you do NOT get to make that decision for me or my potential child or pregnancy. I was never suicidal without ADs like the vast majority of women on them. You can't tell me that the 11% of women in the UK who are on antidepressants are suicidal and would die without them.

Also this thing that ADs decrease risk of suicide is simply not true except in people over the age of 65 where they are protective of suicide. In people over 25 but under 65 they do not make a difference on suicidality on average. In young people antidepressants are shown to increase risk of suicides. There is a black box warning by the FDA that ADs unequivocally increase risk of suicide in people under 25. This is from the pharma companies' own studies https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7031767/

In fact prozac's application for license was rejected in Germany originally because in the clinical trials 2 more people died of suicide on prozac and many more had suicidal ideation than on the placebo arm. People who take these drugs without having depression also get suicidal - i.e. people who are on them for anxiety.

I also never said that women would choose to endanger their own child but they are not warned. I wasn't warned when I talked to the doctor - I went and did my own research not on the internet but from academic sources.

So please save your opinions on what people should do with their own choices or how bad autism can be to yourself. I have a cousin with autism (mother was not on ADs) and it is a struggle both for the child and for the parents. I do not wish to impose an increased risk of suffering on my child IF I have a choice which in this case I did. Your decisions are up to you.

This is misinformation. SSRIs can cause significant birth defects. This is true even though it makes people uncomfortable because they are on these drugs or they are prescribing these drugs. People can choose to take these drugs knowing the facts and that is absolutely their decision to make the same way that some people do choose to drink wine or smoke during pregnancy. But the discomfort does not make this untrue.

Congenital heart defects (not something temporary) are significant even if rare. Other birth defects are also caused by these drugs. Venlafaxine increases the risk of anencephaly more than 9 times. No, I do not hate kids with anencephaly or birth defects or autism. I would not choose to expose my kids to those risks in the same way that I would not choose to increase my kid's risk of an injury in a car accident by not buckling them in. I also don't hate kids that are injured in car accidents.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32777011/

Sertraline, the drug that is freely prescribed to women saying it is not dangerous in fact more than doubles the risk of heart malformations.
"Sertraline was associated with septal defects - here RR 2.26 means 226% increase. (RR 2.69, 95% CI 1.76 to 4.10), atrial septal defects (RR 2.07, 95% CI 1.26 to 3.39), and respiratory system defects (RR 2.65, 95% CI 1.32 to 5.32)."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30415641/

Everyone can have their opinion on what works for them and what risks they are willing to trade off but misinformation is NOT OK.

I never said that you shouldn't make your own pregnancy decisions. Please do not read words that I didn't write. If you AS me you will see that I am more pro-choice than most people.

It should be clear from the wording of my second paragraph, "Nothing quite says 'we hate women'...", that I am talking about scaremongering and pressure being put on women because of a prevailing attitude that autism is a bad thing. Otherwise, who's the "we" doing the hating? I'm not accusing pregnant women of hating themselves.

You commented on something I shared about my own decision in response to someone asking me about my decision saying it is hateful to women and autistics- "nothing quite says 'we hate women.'" I do not hate women or autistic children or those with birth defects. I just did not want to to increase my child's risk. How people make their choices is entirely up to them.

In fact I am posting facts and research here so as to inform women who have been dismissed and not informed by their doctors. Why we treat women like children and unable to decide for themselves is beyond me.

I have a friend who is highly educated who struggled with anxiety and CHOSE to stay on her ADs while pregnant. I did not ever question her decision - she knew the research and it was her decision. My goal is to only inform. Women should not be infantilized by doctors by being misinformed.

My DH won’t be giving his up. They are the only reason he is still alive, he was told to take them forever.

Also, there are many degrees of disability from autism - my cousin is non-verbal and will never be able to take care of himself. His parents are aging (they had him late) and will not be always able to care for him. At some point he will end up in a care facility where he will be drugged out of his mind into a stupor to just keep him quiet. He is in his 30s now and has bouts of anger and violence. I do not hate my cousin but I would not want to be in his place.

I commented on someone else's response to your comment. The intermediate commenter mentioned how the evidence about the autism risk wasn't conclusive and how the risk to mother and baby of PND is far greater. My words should be taken in that context.

As a society, severe disability is something that we handle badly and we need to do it better.

That's interesting @nowayhomer
I was put on fluoxetine in the past and it didn't help my anxiety (and in some ways increased it.) Useful to know that you've found sertraline more helpful.

I didn’t watch, it’s all a load of tosh, this crap hits the headlines every now and then.

For me, they are not a placebo and change my life completely. I’d rather have any side effect than no life.

If you didn't watch it you are not qualified to say it is tosh and crap.
I don't think you understand how placebos work.

Without research and scrutiny you wouldn't have the medication you so value.

@Playawayway , this is simply not true. Stopping cold turkey will almost invariably create withdrawal symptoms, this is acknowledged even by pharma companies and is in the drug leaflet - more true for venlafaxine and paroxetine than for fluoxetine but even fluoxetine causes WD sometimes (albeit because of its long half life in the body these do not emerge for months and are confused with relapse).

Alternating days with doses will increase the likelihood of withdrawal symptoms. There are some people who do not get withdrawal effects from stopping ADs or who get only emotional symptoms and consider that they are the return of their original condition and do not think of them as withdrawal.

The problem is that if one gets withdrawal effects, it may be too late to fix things and this can go on for years. I am on year 4 of absolutely horrendous withdrawal (1st year then getting slowly better). There is a risk of severe withdrawal if people stop too quickly for their brain to adjust. Best course is to be cautious and do the harm reduction approach of 10% of your previous drug. The fact that someone's friend or neighbor got away with not getting withdrawal issues does not guarantee that one will either. When thing go wrong they can go really wrong. Not worth the risk IMO. Slow and steady wins this race every time.

The fact that someone's friend or neighbor got away with not getting withdrawal issues does not guarantee that one will either. When thing go wrong they can go really wrong.

This is true but I've never heard of anyone having 4 year withdrawal issues.

Every anti depressant I’ve taken ( nearly all of them) has never caused withdrawal symptoms. This includes Paroxetine.

Of course l understand placebos.

l watched it last night on catch up. Still think it’s a load of tosh.

So you knew when you took part in a study which used placebos, and you subsequently found out that you were given a placebo?

Couldn't agree more. We just tend to put these people out of sight out of mind and they often bear their lot without much support from the state or society. It's not just disabled people either, though.

I always found it fascinating how many more children and old people and disabled people you see in large cities like Madrid and Barcelona on the streets and in restaurants just integrated with life whereas in London, for example, they are sequestered away. You see kids on the streets maybe right after they come out of school in London and then they are gone. Same with older people.

Totally agree- I've been on anti depressants since I was 19. I've had 3 healthy babies ( eldest is 18). I'm being tested for ASD. Original diagnosis was BPD but I've been masking since my teenage years. My son suffers with anxiety but no ASD diagnosis. No heart problems in any of my children ( i was born with a hole in my heart)
i'll be on medication for a long time.
Healthy/well Mum= healthy /happy etc baby. Hope this helps xx

i was on seroxat for my 1st two pregnancies and citalopram for my third. Ive been on venlafaxine for the last 7 years. HTH x