Euthasia in cases of severe mental health

[Devon01]

Woman who survived Brussels airport bombing is 'euthanised' in Belgium mol.im/a/11291995 via dailym.ai/android

Yes or no?

This is exactly why I can never support euthanasia being legalised in this country. It’s just so wrong to me. I can’t make it work in my brain that it can be okay.

@EgonSpengler2020 This is an internet forum and I am disagreeing with you and giving my opinion too. It's kind of the idea.

Just out of interest if she had been 40 when the bomb went off, not 17, how long would she need to suffer before she was allowed to access a dignified assisted suicide?

Firstly, did I say you weren't allowed an opinion? I was merely expressing my opinion that people can express their feelings without being patronising and condescending to others on the thread. Do people have to be so aggressively 'i know better' towards people who haven't experienced what you have or who don't share your opinions.

Secondly, have I expressed an opinion either for or against euthanasia, regardless of age or reason for wanting it? Did I at any point say that anyone should endure and suffer for a certain amount of time or be a certain age before they make such a decision? Nope, I don't think I did.

Just out of interest if she had been 40 when the bomb went off, not 17, how long would she need to suffer before she was allowed to access a dignified assisted suicide?

This!

Who are we to say someone should suffer just because they might feel better eventually. That’s not a life. If they can be supported to die with dignity and no pain, then they (and those left behind) will never know if they’d have been lucky enough to have come through it and found reasons to live… but they’ll be at peace and no longer feel the need to try to kill themselves in painful and distressing ways- further causing trauma to those around them.

In theory, I am pro euthanasia. In practice, it’s not possible design a process that can’t be abused. Which is unthinkable.

@JacquelineCarlyle - because with MH, you see changes in peoples mood, there are (many) people who attempt suicide, and then find ways of coping better, and regret that decision in the future, and also, I acknowledge many who don't. The nature of it is so labeled, that (for me, personally) I view it differently to a chronic physical disease which will only get worse- MND, MS, cancer, dementia, etc. there is a guarantee of no recovery. I can not say the same for some with mental illness. That's where it makes me uncomfortable. It's not as linear.

@Devon01. I think that using Wiki as a source fails to consider the complexities of ‘voluntary euthanasia’ with euthanasia per se. It’s around the complexity of consent legislation that underpins the choice to die. Voluntary Euthanasia is a very different situation to ‘Euthanasia’ where others make the decision to end someone’s life. I think the differentiation and detail is hugely important.

It's sad, but I agree with giving her the right to choose. Who are we to say her suffering wasn't that bad. She thought it was unbearable and she was the one experiencing it.

@Beginningless I don’t consider euthanasia forward thinking. Why do you say that OP

Here we go again. I never said you do or should think it's forward thinking. I didn't say i thought it was forward thinking. I actually said - in response to someone who said that countries who legalise it are regressive, oppressive and keep it hidden, which is obviously not the case - that some people, instead of thinking it regressive, consider it the way forward. You know, forward thinking.

I am pro- euthanasia generally. It is distressing when somebody young dies doubly so when they choose to end their own life. That said this is a decision to be made between that woman and her doctors. If her life is unbearable, to her, then she deserves the option of a dignified death. We all do.

@CaronPoivre I think that using Wiki as a source fails to consider the complexities of ‘voluntary euthanasia’ with euthanasia per se. It’s around the complexity of consent legislation that underpins the choice to die. Voluntary Euthanasia is a very different situation to ‘Euthanasia’ where others make the decision to end someone’s life. I think the differentiation and detail is hugely important.

Well done, @CaronPoivre. Very eloquently and intelligently point made and you are, of course, avsolutely correct in the over-laboured point youre trying to make

However, you're making the classic mistake of deliberating ignoring misreading the point I was trying to make. I was responding to someone who stated that countries who allow euthanasia were regressive, oppressive and keep it hidden. I was merely pointing out this us not true.

For everyone one would care to read properly - at no point have I expressed an opinion for or against euthanasia, voluntary euthanasia or assisted dying. So please refrain from jumping down my throat.

If she wants to die, then it is an excellent thing that she has the right to choose - I wish we could all have this. Her age is irrelevant.

These arguments are going to go through Parliament soon, are they not?

I can't agree with this. She was just 23. Desperately sad.

I agree - as someone who (as commented upthread) has had severe mental health issues and also married to someone that does too. And also - as an middle aged person now - has chronic degenerative and disabling physical conditions.

I find it strange that some people are only comfortable with this if the person has a documented terminal illness with death imminent in 6 months.

And for those that say physical illnesses and mental illnesses should be addressed completely differently, why?

Also a health professional here and pain is pain no matter the cause. For some they will reach the limit of what they can tolerate in the form of treatments as it can essentially be no better than torture for them.

Your body, your mind, your life and you should have all rights over it including the right to die when you want to.

So to the people who are in favour of this - if you came across, say, a friend who was unconscious after taking an overdose, would you call an ambulance or would you respect their decision to die and leave them to it?

It's incredibly sad when anyone dies by suicide. It sounds like this young lady has really been failed by the medical community, having been sexually assaulted while in hospital for treatment.

As someone with a history of mental illness and suicidal thoughts myself, it's abhorrent to me that doctors (or anyone!) can legally assist in a suicide. If someone had assisted me to end my life as a young person then I wouldn't be here at 40 with a lovely family and a happy life! Change is always possible while we are still alive.

At 23 there was so much more opportunity for change and healing for this young woman, if she had been given the right care and support.

The story is heartbreaking. I am totally against assisted suicide being legal in any circumstances. At the moment terminally ill patients can be given whatever medication necessary to control pain, even if a side effect of that is an earlier death. But the intention is not to cause death. And it never should be.

And anyone can refuse medical treatment of course , and people have the freedom to end their own life. But we as humans and particularly doctors have a duty to try to help the patient find another way out and must never participate in a suicide. First, do no harm.

@Mammed exactly . I think people haven't really fully explored their moral feelings on this.

If we see someone standing on a bridge about to jump, most of us would not walk on by, thinking "it's his right to end his life and I respect that. " most of us would be trying to convince them not to do it, calling for help. We certainly wouldn't be giving them a push.

If we came home to find our spouse on the floor having taken an overdose, we don't say to ourselves "I respect his decision to take his own life and will not interfere". We call an ambulance and try to reverse the decision. If he's still breathing we certainly don't put a pillow over his face to finish the job.

Perhaps it would help to call it "assisted suicide" rather than Euthanasia.

If someone chooses to end their life, surely it is a better choice that it is done in a controlled environment with their loved ones to support them & hold their hands as they pass away than to die alone from something like cutting their wrists & bleeding to death or repeated unsuccessful overdoses?

I would question whether anyone with such severe mental illness that they want to die does have the capacity to make that decision. As posters have reported that they were suicidal but got better and were glad that their attempts did not work🤷. I don't feel that it is the same as someone with a terminal disease such as MND or aged and nearing the end of their life and just miserable at losing their independence.

I think those aren't the only two choices. A better choice would be to try to help them change their life, try another treatment, improve facilities and services for MH sufferers, ensure they are safe where they are receiving treatment for their MH instead of being retraumatised by sexual assault in hospital etc etc etc.

Honestly, I am horrified by the suggestion that my parents could have sat around holding my hand and assisting in my suicide rather than doing everything possible to help me live a better life. As others have also said, the brain is plastic and can change itself, forming new pathways of thought, behaviour and emotion. Depression and PTSD can be treated and can be cured. There is hope.

I find it strange that some people are only comfortable with this if the person has a documented terminal illness with death imminent in 6 months.

agree, plus the whole 6 months from death for people with degenerative diseases is an entirely unrealistic view of how terminal illness works. How would that respect the wishes of someone with dementia who doesn’t want to reach the point of loosing their dignity? Terminal illnesses stretch out for decades in some cases. The whole 6 months option just gives precedence to people who are able to communicate their wishes near the end of life, not to those who have struggled through years of hopeless illness and pain.

I don’t believe in forcing people to live who don’t want to for whatever the reason. Yes she was young and the family will likely be heartbroken but it was her choice. I wasn’t much older than her when my baby had open heart surgery and I’d made up my mind I didn’t want to exist in a world that he wasn’t in and I’d have been mightily pissed off if I was forced to. There sometimes are worse things in life than death. It was her decision and I respect it regardless of her age even though I doubt I’d have done it for her reasons I have had that thought process myself. An ultimatum. If he doesn’t pull through I’m going with him.

This is similar to the original Catch 22. I'm afraid I don't believe this girl will have had sufficient capacity to make this choice.

IMO