SSRI neurotoxicity?

[Umeboshi]

Recently my partner was prescribed fluoxetine and had a horrible experience on it. From the very first tablet, he felt 'stoned' and this only got worse as he took more. He was shocked, as his GP and friends who take SSRIs had led him to expect a subtle therapeutic effect, not a powerful mind-altering drug! I started to do some independent research, and quickly came across the Panorama series of investigations into GlaxoSmithKline's fraudulent marketing of paroxetine. Some of the experts speaking in those documentaries offered extremely thought-provoking information. Next, I discovered a talk with Dr Grace Jackson, who claims the consistent trend from multiple studies indicates that SSRIs lead to shrinkage of the hippocampus, damage to the brain's serotonin network, impaired blood flow to the brain leading to white matter hyperintensities. By this stage, I was alarmed! Has anyone else looked into these matters? It seems fairly certain, as I understand it, that SSRIs are addictive for many people and now it seems they are also implicated in neural damage! Then why in God's name are GPs continuing to prescribe them on such a huge scale? To my immense relief, my partner has now decided against trying other antidepressants, and we're going to look at alternative treatments. Am feeling very shaken up by all the information I've discovered from scientists who appear to be credible, ethical and fair-minded in their assessment of SSRIs. I'd be grateful for suggestions of effective natural remedies for depression. And interested to hear other perspectives on this.

I have no problems with empathy.

What l cannot stand is people saying anti depressants are harmful.

However, l won’t post anymore.

Hmm. This succinct talk on research misconduct, research fraud and fake fixes offers a glimpse into the dark arts being practised by the pharmaceutical companies.

Ben Goldacre MBE is a Senior Clinical Research Fellow at the Centre for Evidence Based Medicine in the University of Oxford. So not exactly a Scientologist or anti-vaxxer.

He's not talking specifically about antidepressants though, is he? Big Pharma has never been particularly ethical, just look at the opioid crisis in the states.

Increased risk of suicidal ideation is a well known potential side effect of SSRIs. It's also well known that people have different abilities to tolerate these drugs. SSRIs are the most well tolerated antidepressants, so they are first line treatments.

I'm not sure you really have a point.

Are you trying to tell us Dr Joseph Glenmullen, who teaches psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, doesn't believe in science?

I googled him and every hit was about selling his books. I then searched for his research papers (currently doing an OU course so have access to their library) and he has zero peer reviewed research papers on neurotoxicity.

I think Dr Glenmullen must have retired now. He must be nearly 80. So probably not at Harvard anymore…

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow He was 49 in May 2000, so he must be 70 now. Yes, perhaps he's stopped teaching. But is that relevant? He calls himself a 'moderate' and says he has prescribed SSRIs for many patients. His message is simply that there are fairly serious risks, and that patients aren't being told of those risks, and that doctors are massively overprescribing. Your argument is that all antidepressants are entirely safe, and people who suffer tardive akathisia when they come off SSRIs should stop moaning?

This is the most helpful article I've found so far on natural treatments for depression and anxiety. I hope this is of use to those of you who'd prefer to avoid synthetic antidepressants. Interestingly, it says at least half of depressed patients in Germany are prescribed St John's wort. And it offers information on dosing.

content.motherearthliving.com/health-and-wellness/beating-the-blues/

Would you really take a website called motherearth living seariously

@bruffin

Would you really take a website called motherearth living seariously

Well, if you're riddled with prejudice, then don't click on the link because the site sounds too hippyish for you. But after several days of extensive research, I found that article among the most helpful and intelligently written. With pragmatic advice on dosing etc. Which is why I shared it with others in the hope of saving them time. Hope that's ok with you.

I just think you're somewhat missing the point. Side effects of antidepressants are well known and well documented. It is also widely known that things like St. John's wort can help with depression. None of this is new, but I there is no evidence of neuro toxicity caused by SSRIs.

All anti depressants are safe. But they all have side effects. Some of these side effects can cause the condition you mentioned or others.

But you just swap to another one if they cause problems.

According to the photo he graduated in 1972.

All the problems you refer to have been known, although I’ve never heard of neurotoxicity.

If you look at it from a historical point of view, Fluoxetine really started to appear at the start of the 90’s. It was hailed as a wonder drug and then during the 90’s a backlash appeared. This carried on until about 2000 or so.

By then it had proved itself and continued to do so. There were so many unfounded horror stories, but it was just a reaction to something new, but which was also dramatically impacting depression. And some people wouldn’t accept that it worked. But it proved itself time and time again as did the other SSRI’s. Some of the info you’ve been looking at are from around the time of the backlash.

It was a hugely successful drug. Unlike anything else, and it gripped the world. I lived through that, I’ve never seen any drug cause such a massive unheard of positive reaction. People were going wild for it. It was on the cover of Time magazine and Newsweek in the US. But it caused a backlash, which you’ve picked up on.

@Umeboshi
You had a go at a previous poster for linking to webmd, talk about hypocracy. You only like the report because of confirmation bias, not because its based on proper evidence

Im fine on fluoxetine. Its been brilliant for me with very few side effects.
I had a horrible time on citalopram though and didnt get on as well with venlafaxine.

The reason doctors prescribe SSRIs is because overall they can be an effective treatment for depression.
Living with depression is hell. It can be fatal.
You have to weigh up the benefits of treatment with the risks of any medication but for me and many others its so worth it

And you know, if your partner was really severely depressed or anxious, so bad he couldn’t function or was hospitalised l don’t think this conversation would be taking place.

I’m not saying he’s not depressed, but there are degrees of depression and if you are really severely ill you’ll try anything to escape from the blackness.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

And you know, if your partner was really severely depressed or anxious, so bad he couldn’t function or was hospitalised l don’t think this conversation would be taking place.

I’m not saying he’s not depressed, but there are degrees of depression and if you are really severely ill you’ll try anything to escape from the blackness.

So true

St Johns wort is useful for mild depression, but is not without side effects either. It makes your skin photosensitive. It reduces efficacy of the contraceptive pill.
Also 5htp is helpful. Getting exercise and good diet is helpful, but sometimes these things just arent enough and you need some proper drugs.

Taking medication for your mental health isnt a failure. Side effects do not prove your point.

People die because of stigma and misinformation about finding the right medication

I just know that SSRI,s saved my life from a very bad place. My GP, my therapists and my psychiatrist all made me aware of potential side effects, and there is even a leaflet in the package itself from the evil lying big pharma companies producing these drugs, and if you are still unsure about the side effects, then you can go on the company website or call them.

I’d rather believe my experience of what have been miracle drugs for me, than some old report giving one viewpoint. I was on the verge of despair and suicide when I was given these drugs and they brought my sanity back.

Arse I completely agree with everything you are saying.

Also, linking an article called beating the blues, to what for very many people is a serious illness is frankly insulting. Having read it, there is one sentence in there that mentions that conventional drugs may have a positive effect and then it goes into mild remedies to help those with “the blues” “the doldrums” or who are “ in a funk”!

Most people who need these drugs are not “in a funk” they are in a serious place where a cup of herbal tea is not going to cure it!

And before you try to tear me a new one like you did Arse - you asked for other perspectives. This is mine.

‘Beating the Blues’ ……..

I wish. It’s more like struggling to defeat malevolent demons that are determined to suck you in to their dark place.

JK Rowling based the Dementors on depression. It’s a good analogy.

Thank you, @ArseInTheCoOpWindow, for toning down your hostility. What you write isn't actually quite correct. The reason people have been led to believe antidepressants are significantly more effective than placebo is because the majority of the trials held by the pharmaceutical companies have been withheld from publication. These companies actively censor the scientific information available to scientists and doctors, burying negative results. So we cannot genuinely establish 1. whether they are effective, or 2. how safe they are, because there is scant research into their longer-term effects. Certain brave scientists, journalists and patients have fought very hard to get the medical regulators and the pharmaceutical companies to admit that the drugs cause an increase in the suicide rates, violent urges and other serious side effects. The pharmaceutical companies have a strong financial interest in suppressing such information. And the regulators have ties to the pharmaceutical companies. However, I truly didn't create this post to get into a fight with anyone. I was interested in engaging with people who've had a similar negative experience with these powerful mind-altering drugs and who've had success in finding effective alternatives or who are searching for other options.

If running or Valerian cured your depression then it's unlikely you were any more than mildly depressed. SSRIs save quantity and quality of life for those more seriously affected.

I would be dead without antidepressants l think. I’m so ill without them. They’ve saved my life. Don’t really care about pharma or any of that. I’m just glad l live now and not 70 years ago.

I am one of the people who had a bad experience with paroxetine in my teens, and know all about the controversy with GlaxoSmithKline - I was directly affected and it changed my life. I understand your concern.

However, antidepressants have helped so many people across the globe, and are essential medication for many. You've got to weigh up the benefits against the risks, and that's what people do, and why so many decide to take them. To save their lives.

I do think it is important doctors offer advice on additional therapies when prescribing medication, to give people more choice. In my personal experience, some doctors fall very short here, but maybe that's just the experience I and some friends have had.

I have a family member on St. John's wort who has found it great, but yes it also has risks, particularly photosensitivity for him.

Exercise and diet can all help, but if someone is very depressed it is like using a teaspoon to bail out a boat. When one gets back on their feet a little more, setting good habits can help hugely.

For me, therapy has helped the most over the years. I have made my peace with the fact that I will always have some level of depression.

Hope your Dh improves.

Thanks for your kind wishes, @DariaMorgendorffer. I'm sorry to hear of your bad experience. And completely agree with all the points you make.