Very messy DD refuses to tidy

[Fieldsofgold21]

I’m a bit desperate and hoping for some advice from someone who has been in a similar situation. I think my DD19 may have some MH issues, but she would never discuss and OH disagrees there is anything. We live together, the three of us. One of the issues is that DD is very untidy - leaves piles of stuff around the house: clothes, shoes, bags, laundry, bedding, stuff that’s probably rubbish but never makes it to the bin/recycling. Stuff piled on top of stuff. Stuff on chairs, tables! She won’t respond to requests to tidy (says busy - will do it tomorrow, but tomorrow never comes) and goes mad if we move them - it really stresses her and this comes out as aggression - swearing, banging doors etc. Can be there for weeks or months. It gets me down as the house is always such a mess. I’ve offered to help tidy (no). I don’t know what to do. Does anyone have a strategy that works - no point in shouting - as OH does sometimes - or giving an ultimatum (and if do - not sure what the ultimatum could be). And she’ll just go out and buy more stuff if one of us dares tidy her things into a cupboard for instance. So we end up with MORE!

Sort it by end of the day or it goes in the bin. She goes mad, so be it. Ant 19 year old getting aggressive with me in my own bloody house would get either a good slap or the police called and she certainly wouldn't be continuing to live here. I don't understand why so many parents put up with aggression and violence from their kids.

Where is she getting the money for more stuff? That is where your leverage is.

My DD has no screen time until her room is clean and tidy on Saturday morning. She complies (or has a strop in her bedroom then complies), but if she didn't I would simply switch off the wifi/change the password.

Also, DD has some difficulties organising her thoughts (diagnosed with poor executive functioning) so checklists are helpful - the she knows exactly what I mean by 'clean and tidy', i.e.

• dirty laundry in the wash
• clean laundry and other possessions put away on hangers/in the correct drawer
• books on bookshelf
• dirty plates etc in the dishwasher
• any rubbish in the bin
• floor vacuumed

Thank you @Allington. I’ll look into poor executive functioning. DD has plenty of money as has a job. I guess she’d just use her phone if we turned off WiFi. But without sanctions I can see it will be hard to change the cycle. OH says we’re all three equal and so she sees it as just as much her house as ours and therefore can do what she likes. I don’t agree with that. It’s not helpful. And she makes no financial contribution as saving up for her travels.

If you are all equal you all contribute equally - financially as well as with housework. You need to get your OH onside first though.

She's 19 not 9, I don't think screen bans and turning off the wifi would work or be reasonable sanctions. Does she contribute to the running of the house in any way - financially or with practical chores?

What's happened when you've tried to have a proper conversation with her about it and explain how difficult you find it? Even if there is an underlying problem, she must be able to at least understand that it is not relaxing or pleasant for you and your OH to live in her mess.

You could also approach it from a place of concern with some open questions. "I'm really worried that you get so upset when we ask you to tidy up or throw things away. That seems like an extreme reaction. What do you think? Does it make you feel anxious when we ask you to clear up? What are you worried about etc".

I couldn't live with that - she would get an ultimatum from me to either tidy up or find somewhere else to live. Yes my house is my kids' home too, but I pay the mortgage and refuse to live in someone else's squalor.

Oh sorry - missed that she doesn't make a financial contribution. In which case the very least she can do is contribute to making a nice environment for everyone to live in. I agree that your OH saying you're all equal in this situation isn't helping. What if all three of you starting to leave piles or rubbish and other stuff around?

Is it confined to her room or everywhere? Why is she saving to "travel" and not move out?

She lives there too. It’s her home. But her mess impacts on everyone else. She needs to keep her crap in her room. Not tomorrow. Now.
And OH needs to agree boundaries with you and consequences.

I would give her the option to move it herself or have you move it. "DD I am tidying up in a hour / after dinner so if you have stuff around the house it needs to be moved by then or I will move it" and then you walk away to let her decide what to do. If she is aggressive to you that is a whole different ball game and needs a serious conversation. As an adult she cannot use stress as an excuse to be abusive to others.

I've lived in flatshares where we were literally all equal and it was never considered acceptable to leave your stuff all over the place. Definitely not acceptable when you are paying all the bills, despite her working!

She sounds very much like me in the messy sense.

My parents tried binning all my stuff when I was younger. It didn't help, it was just another permanent fracture in our relationship. I've never forgiven them and don't think I ever can.

I tried living alone but moved back as I wasn't functioning and my parents regularly has to visit to clear it out.

Mine is severe mental health problems and a chronic pain & fatigue condition.

Medical help, not threats or punishment is the answer.

Thank you all - just rushing around now but will read carefully later. Appreciate the advice - some very sound stuff here. No, she doesn’t help with housework or anything - makes own meals, does own washing etc but nothing ‘communal’ eg vacuuming. I’ve given up asking as it becomes a stress point/battle - can’t force her so easier to do it ourselves.

So she knows you’ll back down. That’s the issue. Decide on boundaries and stick to them. Even if it’s easier to do it yourself in the short term.
Or she’s free to move out.

She definitely won’t move out (and to be fair can’t afford to unless gets a live-in job, which I suppose she technical could as works in hospitality), and OH absolutely refuses to contemplate us suggesting it. He gets very defensive of her right to live with us for as long as she wants and I’ve learnt not to broach it or he gets upset/cross with me. I do feel she may have MH issues which are exasperating this situation although OH disagrees.

This is worth a read: A letter to... My son whose flat is filthy

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/may/17/letter-to-my-son-filthy-flat-aspergers

He’s the issue then. He lets her live off you, make an mess of the house and undermines you at every turn.
She’s an adult. She can live with you, treat the house with respect and save to go travelling. Or move out.
If he’s so desperate not to upset her then he’s welcome to go to!

Perhaps if there's loads of stuff it gets too overwhelming to start. Could you break it into smaller tasks to try and deal with the whole over a week or two? You could break it down by category - e.g laundry, books, papers or location: stuff on that chair, on the dining table and so on.

If your DD were to move out it wouldn’t help her or you. She’d not be able to manage and you’d be worried about her all of the time. I know it’s no victory but at least you know where she is. I say this because I’d she does have MH issues then you will need to support her as a family.
Punishments will not work if this is the situation.

I'm naturally untidy, can be completely oblivious to it and get stressed at other people tidying up my things because a) I'll feel ashamed b) feels like an intrusion c) I lose things that way.

I found ways to manage it as I grew up and now you'd only notice if I was going through a difficult time and hadnt kept on top of things.

As to leaving clutter about the house, my solution was to have a box in the sitting room. If I'd left anything lying about, housemates were free to put them in the box and then I dealt with it in my own time. Worked really well and kept everyone happy.

Even now, when I tidy as I go, I still tend to have spot in the room I might leave things for a while.

You're not going to change her completely but i think you need to start implementing rules about where mess can be left.

Eg dirty stuff dealt with straight away, clutter in one place.

For starters she should be contributing financially although given her behaviour I'd be concerned she'd use that as a reason to excuse her messiness and lack of effort.

At the very least she should be contributing in terms of chores

This hasn't just recently happened has it? I'm guessing she's been getting away with poor behaviour for quite some time.

Time you and oh agreed on what is and isn't acceptable and present a united front and at her age given she's earning too her choices are

Shape up

Or

Ship out!

I know it's not easy, my dd is 20 and away from home now but the last couple of years she was at home were...interesting!

We get along much better now and she realises now also how annoying her bad habits were and that I wasn't actually being unreasonable

So she knows you’ll back down. That’s the issue

Yep! You have to stick to your guns

Is oh her dad? He is being way too soft

Dd and I also have Mh issues - different ones to each other which occasionally clashed - but that's really no excuse for not living in a way that is reasonably considerate of others.

Is she earning decent money or not? If she can save to travel I'm thinking she certainly can at least afford a flat share! It's normal at her age to move out of the family home as many do either to uni or for work reasons. This also usually means they get their "corners rubbed off" by flat mates as they aren't restricted by emotional/familial connections and tend to just say "oi quit leaving your dirty dishes for us to do!"

It's part of growing up.

Would I be right in thinking oh one of those that thinks kids should never do chores etc?

I totally disagree - you need to start early and teach them that they have a responsibility to their family and their home to maintain it so it's a relaxing and comfortable environment for everyone in it.

Off on her travels? You must be counting the days - I did some hostelling a decade back and came across some like yours. As one hostel owner said ' I can see why their parents give them money to go as far away as possible'.

This is selfish and disrespectful, and I don't see that mental health issues excuse that. She needs to move out, her long holiday funds would be better directed at that. Hopefully flatmates will knock her into shape.

This may sound horrible but frankly so does she.

I’m going to put anything that belongs to you in your bedroom, this is my house and have decided that I’m not living in a sh*t hole another week, so I’m giving you a weeks notice to move your stuff after that I just opening your bedroom door and throwing in it!! If you are not happy with this , do feel free to move out into a rented flat.

Of course if you are struggling to organise your stuff I’m happy to help you organise & declutter your room, but either way you stuff is not going to take over my home.

Sorry - only just got back to this. Thanks again for replies. I do appreciate them - much food for thought.

@Allington
If you are all equal you all contribute equally - financially as well as with housework. You need to get your OH onside first though.

Very true - that’s a good one and I’ll use it.

@scaredsadandstuck I like your ideas thanks re sharing my concerns with her - I suspect I’ll get a withering look and sarcy reply but it’s a start and shows I’m listening and open. Not just nagging!

@Theunamedcat It’s all around the house - her room is small and she’s completely taken over the spare room too (stuff everywhere including on the floor).

@Wolfiefan Yep agree re boundaries - need to get OH on side - he tends to pander to her as afraid to upset her but then will explode/shout/swear at her now and again. Not how I want her to see ‘us’.

@coronabeer I’ll try that - breaking it down is spot on!

@TaraR2020 One of her ‘things’ is having CONTROL and I think she does worry about losing stuff so get aggressive/anxious/angry if we move anything.

@Graphista Yes you’re right - this is not a recent thing. OH tends to ‘unsee’ bad behaviour and make excuses. Doesn’t help. He is her Dad and would like her to do chores ... but won’t agree to any sanction that threatens her with moving out. That’s off-limits and she knows it.

@murbblurb I think we’re a bit scared of her extreme reactions and OH feels we should be more tolerant IF she has MH issues whereas I think we need to be firm but kind and have clear boundaries.

@Nanalisa60 Yes - warn, stick to guns, act. Tried that in a small way yesterday and it worked . Yay!

I think I need to practice assertiveness! Clear, firm, warn, ACT!

I think you have to tell her that her stuff needs to be in her room (or the spare room if you're happy for her to use that too) and that if she leaves it round the house you will put it in her room or the spare room. If she buys more that will go in there too.
Do you think she might have some sort of shopping or hoarding addiction? It all sounds a bit odd - possible aspergers?

@Tal45 I think @EverNapping was thinking possible Aspergers with the shared link - my suspicion is there is something ‘high functioning’ going on. It is almost impossible to reason with her. And there is a certain amount of vengefulness at times eg putting things back where they were if I tidy them away. Buying new items rather than retrieving the ones we have perhaps put in a tidy up box. It’s all very difficult.