help me get through the next 12 hours

[legalalienindulwich]

This is the first post I've done and can't believe I' posting it - although I constantly feel at the end of my tether, now I really think I may be there.

By way of background (which is doubtless boring and somewhat narcissistic (SP?), but bear with me as I suspect that half the battle will be me writing this down and getting it off my chest:

I've suffered from clinical depression since my mid teens. I grew up in a small town where social connections were very important, my parents came from overseas and didn't fit in, I was a fairly bright but not very confident child, and did what I had to to adapt to the circumstances. Which meant, as a result of my perfectionist tendencies, succumbing to anorexia/bulimia. I dropped out of university after my first year in order to sort this out, had a break down of sorts (sent to counselling, which was completely hopeless as I managed to convince the counsellor that it was all my parents' fault - which it really wasn;t) - and after a year off was strong enough to take myself back to university and earn myself a really good law degree. Except that, instead of relying on my ability to control food, I just drank a lot and exercised obsessively. All of which qualified me nicely to be a highly successful work hard/play hard lawyer for the following decade, in the course of which I had a successful career and ended up in London with an equally successful partner. The depression, naturally, never wore off - it comes in bouts, but I've always worked on the basis that knowing your enemy gets you a long way - and if you keep busy your mind gets diverted into other things. I told my husband and he listened but I don't think you can really understand unless you've been there.

Anyway, we decided to start a family. Obviously we both had careers, and we agreed that his would come first but subject to some important parameters - he'd stay home until the nanny arrived in the morning - so that I could start really early if necessary - and that he'd come home one night a week (so that I could have some semblance of a social life). Neither of which has happened, and I;ve ended up in a job that I wouldn't have chosen, through necessity. I'm in a bigger house - something I've always made clear is not important to me - and am 12.000 miles from either of our families. None of our friends have children/ We've just moved house and I know no-one nearby. DH has been working on a project in a different city for the last nine months, home only from after bedtime Friday until before sun up on Monday. In that period I've had to move house completely solo, as well as working full time and taking responsibility for all chores, household admin etc (Poor me )

So far I'm surviving and putting the best show that I can on for DS (aged 2.5), but although I've coped with a hell of a lot of stuff for almost 20 years, I'm worried that I'm near breaking point. So if you can, just say something supportive. Don't bother to suggest that I ring some kind of helpline / speak to my GP because frankly, I've been there, done that several times now, and it ain't going to make a difference. I WILL cope, just that right now, I need someone to say something that indicates to me that I'm not a complete loser.

OK - rant over, feel slightly better already, but any comments welcomed, at the risk of reducing me to tears

Have you confronted dh about being unhappy?

Yes. The problem is though, that when you;re long term depressed on and off, I think it's difficult for your other half to tell whether this is just business as usual depressed or something else. Also, if they aren;t physically there, it;s kind of hard to have the conversation. Sorry about semi colons, is dark in study and am crap at touch typing punctuation and numbers

Do you feel different this time I mean yourself, being depressed with no obvious cause compared to being unhappy for very valid reasons?

Have you considered leaving? That's quite a clear message and it sounds like your doing it all yourself anyway. Bugger dd crying and in my bed need to dash

I'm sure she'll correct me if I'm wrong but her dh is rather too lovely to leave. He may be workaholic and shove the reality of being a parent under the office carpet in order to facilitate such a committed work ethic but he is truly devoted to ds and his dw.

Unfortunately he is male and probably imagines that it will all work itself out magically. He might not realise that Paul Daniels is a prat and that Debbie McGee is a fake until it is rather too late for ds and dw and this is why legalalien is banging her head against a brick wall I imagine. Except OP does not headbang publicly.

Just my perception.

la, I am more like him than like you, so I probably understand his position better than most. I love the children but the career, success and all that stuff has always been important. I was married for 19 years and we had 5 children and both always worked full time but we had a very very equal marriage (the divorce was nothing to do with that) and I would not have stood it for 5 minutes if there were any concept that he was "helping me" or the children were my responsibility just because I happened to be female and to be fair nor would he - we discussed it before we married and he even then said he'd give up his job if nannies didn't work out.

So perhaps this isn't so much a feminism/equality issue and your resentment of that but just a mental health issue and just is probably completely the wrong word.

Small chidlren are very very hard work. I had three by the time I was 26 and in some ways that means you get used to adult life with children in it at a young age and almost don't know anything else which perhaps makes it easier but I would not have wanted ever to stay at home or even work part time. It's too much like hard work and domestic service. With those children we were young and we certainly couldn't afford a cleaner etc and it was harder then. The one thing that does help is money and those working mothers and fathers I know who still work the "extreme jobs" in the City which are certainly no 9 - 5 smooth the path by outsourcing dross jobs and keeping for themselves the nice bits of having children. That worked well for us as time went by.

Do you resent the fact your husband is not there a lot and you are left with the child in the evening (which is not what most people in relationships hope for - they want to be together a good few evenings a week) in the sense that you almost want him forced to help or would it equally be solvable by you getting a bit of the pressure off you such as two nights a week out doing a hobby or whatever with someone else at home to help (and it wouldn't matter whether it were him or someone else like an extra babysitter?).

Given the model you've chosen and seem to prefer of your career second then you're obviously going to be the immediate back up if things go wrong so may be you just need to find more backups. My sister uses an emergency nanny service if her children are off school sick and over the years we have got to know people who can help. We advertised for Saturday morning help when the twins were born not so much so we could both work, although we often both did on Saturday am (and happily - let' s not forget for a lot of us work is more fun than yet another toddler tantrum and I don't see anything wrong with saying that) but so that we could ferry the other 3 children around the twins were at home in peace. That worked really well and we got a bank of people some of whome were local and retired and were happy to do odd hours or days.

In fact my advise to anyone with one 2 year old is have the second child actually if you want a proper family although I doubt anyone on here would agree with me.

Children under 5 are very hard work and post people find that stage of their lives is the hardest they ever go through whether they're male or female and then it gets better. In terms of depression my brother and father are psychiatrists and my sister a psychologist and I suppose they spend their lives helping and even curing people with depression. If you're not bad enough to need pills (and they do work for many people and revolutionise their lives) then what about the classic solutions of more exercise, healthy diet, getting outside in the open air, cutting out sugar, going to bed earlier possibly with some therapy too? My father used to send patients off to do things like learn to ride or take up a sport or just something to move the body and get the happy feelings and beta endorphins flowing. He would steer them off their oft repeated suggestions that taking a lover was the answer.

nlnn, you are of course spot on, although I could have done without the mental image of self in a magician's little helper outfit!

X - you're quite right about the solutions and the first thing I ought to do is get back to the gym. In fact it's the thing I promised myself to do when I changed my job, and I just haven't. In terms of the rest - I think I'm not so much looking for anything life changing, as a few small concessions. Maybe him getting up one day on the weekend, or helping with one meal, or even loading the dishwasher or putting the washing in the washing machine! Which all sounds terribly mundane - but it's small things like that which are having the effect of making me feel like the administrative assistant / maid at the moment.

And it doesn't help that we've probably spent a sum total of about 2 hours in each other's company over the last fortnight (and no, he's not away!)

I don't know. Maybe it will sort itself out once the current, 9-months of full time negotiation deal finally finishes.....

Lover? Where would I find the time or energy for a lover?

Right - bored of speaking about self now. Off to find a new thread to haunt (hey, I've registered now, I might as well post something)

LA, you seem to have a very good insight into yourself, your dp and the dynamics of your relationship, and you are doing fine, as I think you already know!

On the 'small concessions' front, I've found that it pays to be very specific about what you want your dp to do in measurable behavioural terms - you've said it here, so have you said it to him just as specifically? Actually, you might need to be even MORE specific!

I am not happy with that last post. I thought he had agreed your career came second and I could just about accept some women can live with that even when they work full time but that has nothing to do with chores at weekends surely. Surely anyone would be kneeing him in the groin the first weekend on the marriage or after the birth when he was sitting there whilst you did the washing! I suspect the fault often lies with women in that position. Part of hte answer is not to do the chores. If the other person won't do them either and is quite content with say a messy house or no shirts to wear then fine - live in a mess but never clear up after them whilst they're sitting around or on the golf course and always try to ensure completely equal time off so a Saturday playing golf for him or whatever he does equals an equal amount of time for you off doing what you like etc etc

Which last post are you not happy with Xenia? Mine or LA's? And is your happiness relevant to the discussion?

The fact there's a man married to a full time intelligent lawyer in 2007 who doesn't stack the dishwasher or expect to cook one meal at weekends and that women tolerate that and allow it to happen. It's unacceptable. Completely wrong.

I agree with that last post of Xenia's. LAID, I know it's bloody hard, when you're stuck in a deal which isn't in fact as equal as it's supposed to be, to make those readjustments (heaven knows things in the Inferiority Complex are far from perfect!) but I really feel for you and do hope you can shift him to an extent.

Come on out to play with Blu and me and others. CAT me, go on.

There are loads of us, struggling to balance out jobs we love and children we love, within the structure of a society that still does not expect men to take fatherhood seriously.

Hi LAID
It sounds to me as though the main issue here is your DHs inability to play an equal role in the home-running and child-rearing parts of your lives.
There is absolutely NO reason on earth why, in this day in age, your DH should not be able to load a dishwasher, put on a load of washing, or cook a meal (or if that is completely beyond him, put a pizza in the oven - take responsibility for a meal). And for him to be the one lying in bed every weekend morning....! Come on, if this was a friend of yours saying this, what would you be sayin to her? THere is nothing in your DNA which makes you more capable or suited for doing this work.
I'm a bit concerned that he is so defined and driven by his need for cash and status, that he is effectively devaluing you for your (joint) decision to downsize your career by becoming a PSL. And you are letting him get away with it - by running around doing all this stuff, you are validating his decision that because you are doing the less "important" work from a monetary and career point of view, you should also be the house drudge. Apart from the fact that it is putting immense strain on you, it is immensely disrespectful of you to treat you this way. I would really sit down with him, and have a long talk about what is going on. I would tell him that you are both working full time jobs (his perhaps more hours than yours, but as a senior associate or partner that is what he has chosen, it doesn't make your job any less full time) and you both need to be equal partners in the home the rest of the time. If that means you have to spell it out, then do it. You get up with DS on Saturday mornings and give me a lie in, I'll do the same for you on Sunday mornings. I'll produce Saturday dinner and Sunday lunch, you have to come up with Saturday lunch and Sunday supper one way or another. Whoever hasn't cooked does the dishes/stacks the dishwasher. etc etc etc.
Also I know plenty of families where the mother cooks the sunday lunch, but sunday mornings is daddy and children time - ie while you are slaving over the roast (or slamming some meat in the oven and sitting down with a coffee and the papers) he has to take DS out to the park, or wherever, for a couple of hours, because DS needs to know his daddy, and daddy needs to get to know DS.
I do know how you feel re the pressures of work and home and children etc etc, having spent 10 years in a magic circle firm and working mad hours, but at least I had a husband who, although he travelled a LOT etc etc, was always super hands on and involved when he was home. I can't imagine how anyone copes with that sort of stress in such an unequal partnership.

If you weren't in such an unequal partnership my advice would be different - it would be to ask you if you wanted more children, and if so to get pregnant, have a baby, go on (presumably nicely funded) maternity leave, and use that time to really work out what you want to do and how you are going to manage everything. But I do think your partnership with your DH needs to be sorted out first off.
Best of luck

Oh and I think you are wrong when you say "Get a grip and start measuring yourself against some sort of societal benchmark"... I don't think you need to measure yourself against what society expects (therein madness lies - who could ever measure up?!) but what works for YOU and YOUR family. You need to find some sort of balance that keeps you happy, fulfilled in your work, fulfilled at home, and perhaps a little frazzled (who isn't, with small children), but basically enjoying life. If your way of finding that is a way which society thinks is bizarre - who gives a crap? Whatever works for you....

LAID - imo, Xenia is right that time off at at the weekend is not the prerogative of the male, and Minty is right that you work out what suits you as a couple, regardless of social expectations, and I would add that you get the behaviour you're prepared to put up with.

Yes, and I would add to that that in some relationships, even though I regard it as politically pernicious, some women are happy to do all the chores even if they work full time. I'd like them to have compulsory hypnosis to change their mind set but I suppose I might allow them to exist. But this isn't even this situation.

Also lots of two career working couples both work in the week and sometimes at weekends - my husband I often did. That did not preclude him putting on the dishwasher etc. Certainly divide jobs up - he did the washer and dishwasher, I did school bags etc but there needs to be a divide and not the man helping the woman. He needs his domestic tasks and she needs hers and then it becomes automatic without thought - oh it's Saturday morning I put on the washer or here's the ironing I do every Sat night when I get in from a day's Saturday work or whatever and it must NEVER juts be fun time with children for the men. It has to be dross toilet cleaning too as men playing with children whilst full time working woman cleans is just about the worst model there is.

Um OK then, that's helpful I think (and also consistent, dare I say it, with what both sets of parents / his siblings and our mutual friends have to say). Bother.

BTW, cricket, not golf.

I have tried to make the point about divvying up stuff more than several times, but it doesn't seem to go anywhere due to the fact that (a) my tolerance threshold for living in a pit is much lower and I give up after about two weeks and (b) (I think, and I'm wary about trying to second guess other people's thought processes here), that when I get upset (can't do anger except on very rare occasions), I think it gets put down to depression (and therefore discounted). I don't disagree that there's a bunch of depressed stuff that does need to be discounted (because its definitely hormonal and not rational), but it doesn't mean that every time I'm sad or frustrated it's a depression issue. Any suggestions (I have thought about a cardboard badge with a "depressed / not depressed" message on either side.....

and Xenia, as always, you hit it on the head. DH expects it to "just" be fun time.

Another point I'd appreciate your input on deriving from a discussion this morning : DS grizzly as is currently v confused when DH is home. I was talking him through it.

DH: You don't discipline him enough.

Moi: Well, to be fair, you don't parent him at all. He doesn't do this when you're not here, and the approach I'm taking usually works to calm him down.

DH: I'm sick of being criticised about not being here. I work 16 hour days at the moment.

Moi: I'm not trying to be difficult, but the thing is that it's kind of hurtful for you to "pop in" every now and then and criticise me for how I'm handling the parenting.

Am I being unreasonable, and more importantly, how do you think I can deal with this better? Because frankly, it's this kind of niggling that causes most of the tension.

Am going to have to ponder on the "get the behaviour you put up with point" as I think it's horribly true - I did all the "stuff" before we had a child, it's just that it was a bit more manageable before we had a child.

Am also slightly horrified (and perhaps this is what triggered the posting) by the fact that an old friend who has just moved back to London after several years away, came to visit us last weekend, and after an hour took me aside and gave me a "what the hell has happened to you" talk.

(if you don't laugh - you cry!)

PS what is this CAT business? Have only just logged on and not read the fine print

Have you thought about only one of you working? If you've got well paid jobs you can probably afford it. I feel really privileged being able to stay at home to take care of the DCs and house, many can't afford to.

Having young children is hard but can also be enjoyable if you have the time and allow it. Be careful about getting uptight about what he does vs. what you do, that pervades everything you do and believe me while Daddy's having fun time with children it will always be clouded if Mum's clanking around in a huff and then no-one has any fun at all. I'm not saying that you should do everything by the way, I'm saying that both of you should do less.

Your history says you like to be on top of things, and I think you're afraid of burnout. Perhaps slowing down will prevent this - it's hard to change your behaviour but believe me you don't want to burnout while you've got children.

MsM - no, and I won't. And without offence - I'm just not someone who'd be happy to stay at home full time, and neither would DH.

[I understand that this kind of comment puts me at risk of turning this thread into some sort of SAHM / WOMH debate, and I hope it won't turn into one. For the record, having had a bit of a roam through some of those threads, I'm not quite sure why they're so vitriolic - the principal posters seem quite similar and quite unemotive (taking a "this is what suits me and it might suit you so you should feel free to ignore what your inlaws, friend, the world and its oyster are saying and should go with what you feel is right and I am here to offer you an alternative" philosophy). But I will reserve my position for the time being. I might be missing something)

I think you need to listen to what your friends, his parents, your parents, siblings, and a load of anonymous women on an internet site are saying.

One thing you MAY want to consider (and think about it - don't discount it out of hand) is letting your DH read this thread. I think you've been very rational and very thoughtful and very fair on it - but you've also had quite a lot of advice all pointing to your relationship with your DH needing a bit of finetuning. Maybe this could be a starting point for discussion - and it also may help him to realise that there are serious issues here for him.

I think you SHOULD let him read the thread, I think it would be very helpful, but I appreciate you may not want him to.

do you work full time or part time at the moment?

if full time would either you or DH consider going part time?

is DS in childcare at the moment? i am a single parent and i am going to start putting DS in childcare soon. not so i can work more but so i get a bit of a break and don't go completely insane.

btw get some blackout blinds. they are a godsend if you have a ds like mine who wakes at the first ray of sun.

I know a lot of London full time working couples often both in very busy jobs and they are not all married to men who don't pull their weight by any means. But they often are both working very hard and here because you don't work 16 hour days he assumes you have more time to do the other things and he's in a way treating you like a housewife or someone who works 2 hours 3 days a week. So in my view in a sense yo uhave the worst of all worlds. I often thing even part time work is worse for women as it's assumed they do everything domestic and relating to the children plus work. That's very unfair. It's easier to be a housewife than that, not that I could ever had done that.

As I'm divorced I am probably not the best person to advise on handling men but he certainly won't want to talk about it and I'm sure he won't want to be criticised. He's probably critical of how the child is because he doesn't know what 2 year olds are like but even what he said to you sounds awful as if it were your job to discipline. I don't think I've ever "disciplined" children anyway. Toddlers need cuddles and love routine exercise and tolerance from their parents whilst they go through a bad stage. 100% of them lie on supermarket floors kicking and screaming. If they don't you've got a defective toddler.

In general with people and relationships I don't think any of us can ever change anyone very much so I wouldn't look at that as a possible route. I certainly wouldn't give up work. My remedy would be you get your career back on track and buy in more help and have a second child too but I doubt you're at my extreme end of feminism and love the work in the same kind of way to make that a possible solution. So staying with how things are then you work full time and he works very much full time (let's hope he earns quite a bit doing that too) so there should be some scope to make your life easier. That is unlikely to change him into being the involved father. Some men are just like that (and women) and some aren't. I never took the children to the dentist in 17 years for example. Their father always did.

I would try to stop criticising him. Tell him when he's done things well. I tell you how we once we could afford it about 10 years and3 children into the marriage, we hired a cleaner who came every morning in the week (she still comes) and she cleans the house, empties the washer and dishwasher, irons, puts clothes away, tidies the floors (including children's toys and in particular three teenagers' rooms which has hugely removed causes of stress). Secondly as I said below we sometimes had weekend morning help with the children ( we do have 5 not one but even with one, why not?) - there';s someone here this morning with the twins (they're 8) and I'm just pottering around in my office which is peaceful. That means you don't need to nag each other about things. Also I think things bed down over time. When I was first with my husband it took me a while to get used to how he liked things and presumably vice versa too. He used to get very cross about the way I stacked the dishwasher and I think his mother and also from when he had his own house they were kind of cleaner and tidier than my mother was and we kind of moved to that standard. However both he and I are very tidy and that helped a lot.

Also having under 5s is just really hard work for everyone and I think you grit your teeth, have as many as you can close together to get it done and then enjoy the rest of life when you start getting more sleep and peace. With the first children it was a huge change - to go from no children to a child is the biggest change any of us ever go through and it's hard for men and women to adjust. I'm sure you're both still in that phase.

I would imagine you're working 16 hour days too actually because you work the work at work and then come home and deal with the child until bed time but if your other half is tired he's not likely to want long rational discussions about who works hardest.

So I suppose buying in more domestic and other help helps. We used to try to go out together one night a week and make sure the sex life was okay which I think is at the heart of how most couples get on or don't so I'd usually start with that. Buy underwear. Buy more domestic help but don't nag him to change as he won't and see how it goes.

X - I think this is sound advice, particularly because I have already made the effort to thank DH for putting a wash on this morning (think he may be reading this thread secretly, as this is not something he's done in the last six years as far as I can remember). Might have left the PC on last night.

Sadly, the wash includes my red linen skirt, which is, from past experience, not remotely colourfast.... am preparing self to see the funny side of the consequences!

Second child out of the question due to complicated genetic issues (first one was a high risk gamble - a long story which I'll save for now).

Think I'll start by getting a babysitter to come once a month so that I can have a "me" evening... baby steps!

Good plan. Sorry about suggesting second child then. Always try not to put my foot in it by assuming everyone has that choice. In that case as you don't have 8 more years of under 5s it will be even easier. Before you know it he'll be at school and then in due course at the stage when you're lucky if he grunts at you on the stairs.

I've never bought clothes that cannot all not be bunged in the washer all at once; don't even do a whites wash; never iron.

One major reason some women put off their men helping is the women adopt a sort of I do everything best sort of mode. I've been out to mothers' dinners from school and been appalled at the way they talk about and treat their men as if they were some kind of additional child. It's that often unconscious grasping for power in the home - I am better at cooking than him, I look after the child better, I am the only person who can settle the child, look at how incompetent that man is kind of thing which ensures many women remain domestic slaves - they kind of bring it on themselves. It's a bit like employing nanny - ours worked out well because I accepted they would never do things as I did them, that I am often wrong, that a different way can be better and that even if that way was sometimes worse that was better than not having the help. So I wouldn't even mention the red skirt or its effects. None of us are good at things we've never done until we start doing them.

It's been interesting watching my 18 year old son learn to cook - he's at university. So things like boiling potatoes - to explain what is done without telling him how to do it, without damaging the ego, but whilst being helpful but without interference is a fascinating exercise for me. In fact I think he now boils them better than I do as he looked up tips on the internet.

YOu can probably guess I'm doing some work which requires lots of little gaps and rests hence long posts.

I sort of had to mention the red skirt since DH's favourite shirt went pink. I've fixed it using the colour run stuff that I always keep on hand (which kind of gives away the fact that I'm not exactly domestic goddess myself). But in a subversive fashion, I'm leaving the lining of his jeans to be pink for all eternity!

Not at all sensitive to the no second child issue. Very lucky to have one, frankly!

And the "nanny doesn't do things the same way" thing is food for thought. I accept that about the nanny without any problem, so not sure why the same doesn't apply to DH. I think the problem might be that he tries too hard with DS in the limited time slots available, as you said earlier doesn't really get what a 2 year old does, and treats him much like a four or five year old - and then can't deal with the resultant tantrums. I will need to try and think of a way of getting this across without sounding critical. May have to cheat and employ a mutual friend.