Do I have PND? Or just a baby? And are there ways of coping without drugs.

[twocatsonthebed]

So, here I am, dd 4.5 months, me physically recovered, if a bit stout. Nothing's that bad, but nothing's that great either. I'm tired, no, exhausted, utterly without energy, and can cry at the drop of a hat (as well as shout at DH for no good reason). I don't really feel like myself at all - I'm usually energetic and fantastically cheerful.

And there's no reason for me to feel like this. I'm blessed with a baby who sleeps, and a dh who works from home and is a fantastic support, so I feel as though I have no excuse at all. And to all appearances, I'm coping fine: getting dressed every day, cooking dinner, talking to people, getting out and about and so on. So I think I'd get pretty short shrift from the HV (not that she's very interested in me anyway, and it's an open clinic) or the doctor.

So, is this PND, or just the normal fabric of life with a baby? And, given that no dr is likely to prescribe me ADs, what can I do to make myself feel better? I am trying to go for a walk most days, do some gardening, but what else?

Perpetual homework is a good analogy - hence the need to suuf the internet as soon as I have a moment, which is so wrong! Mortgage needs paying .
I'm a freelance writer, btw, so in theory I should be able to work at any time, but of course at 6pm when my partner comes home I'm knackered and mentally clock off. Can't face working in the evenings/weekends although I should, it's just so nice when all 3 of us are able to do things together.
And I'm in a nice part of Peckham, south London... there is a nice bit, contrary to what you may have read on news reports, honestly!
I think my problem is not joining any baby groups etc... I haven't really got anything like that sorted yet, am sure it would help. plus, like you, I run around like a neurotic housewife trying to clean up whenever I get some free time. Because I am a neurotic housewife I guess .

Freelance writer?! That's what, in my dreams, I would be career shifting to now, if only I knew where to begin and had the energy to start it. (What I have been doing in tv involves long hours, lots of travel, stress by the tonne and is in no way compatible with having children for the next few years at the very least. And I'm sick of it...) What kind of stuff do you write?

And I do know that there are nice parts of Peckham - having filmed in them a few years ago (makeover programme, lovely, lovely house!). My brother's just down the road, on the border with Camberwell.

But to more serious stuff, I sometimes wonder whether the housework is a kind of, not displacement activity, but a reassurance. I do feel that if the house looks ok, I must be coping. I was majorly obsessed with tidiness and things being in the right place when dd was first born, and I'm sure that was a big part of it.

Also, I know that everyone tells you to get out of the house, but baby groups are definitely not the cure for anything much, other than how to kill the long and fractious afternoons. You meet a whole load of women who you don't necessarily have much in common with other than child rearing, and are forced to exchange banalities in case you say something controversial. Then you go home and tell your partner either that a) they are dull or b) they are wierd because they prop books up on the playmat around their baby even though he is only three months old. But it is nearly bathtime by that point.

And I don't think this is just my payback for moving to a small market town in the West. I said this to a couple of my London friends who have children, and they both agreed, and said it took them years to find people they had anything in common with.

Anyway, enough ranting, maybe they're very nice round Peckham. But I don't think they're a cure for PND.

Twocats, looking back on all the messages on this thread, I would say I feel exactly the same as you and some of the other posters - on the edge pretty much sums it up. I don't know if it's PND but maybe some kind of in-between place between that and normality? Because it isn't normal, having a baby to look after, when you've only ever lived a completely different lifestyle. It really is a kind of crazy twilight zone!

I'd never even so much as held a newborn before I'd had my daughter either, and I guess the truth is I wasn't mentally prepared for the whole shock of it all. Also, I don't know if you liked being pregnant or not but personally I hated it - was in hospital for some of the time which didn't help, and am kind of phobic about pain so almost dreaded the actual birth. In the end I had to have an emergency c-section anyway, after a horrid painful labour, so it wasn't the greatest start. I can't even remember the first few days now, I must have blanked it all out, or maybe it was the drugs (good drugs , thank god for the drugs!!).

Maybe it's the 4 month stage when it all hits you in the face, so to speak? Having had a really quite cry-y, unsettled baby, I keep thinking the settled stage is just around the corner and life will return to normal. Dream on.

Anyway, am really sorry to rant, and don't mean to hijack your thread in any way at all, but I suppose I'm trying to say that I feel like you, so I don't suppose it's an abnormal state of affairs. I could ramble on, and am sorry to have no constructive advice, but I suppose your post struck a chord with me.

Good advice re baby groups and books propped on playmats - hilarious, and ones to avoid I suspect. Round here I fear I would get kicked out for not having a bugaboo anyway .

As for my writing, well it's a very specialised field: poker - believe it or not! (And of course, I'm writing a children's book.... I know, I know, neither am I ). Writing is just for the terminally unemployable don't you know? TV career sounds pressured but good, most of my friends seem to work in TV, you probably know some of them!
And I too live Camberwell borders of Peckham - small world.
Finally, if I can think of any actual useful advice for you I will let you know, rather than blogging my whole life story. I guess going to the doc's can't hurt... maybe I too should give it a go? All the best...

Don't worry about hijacking this, it's good to know that other people are in the same situation, whatever it may be. Somewhere on here, someone said that 4 months is where the euphoria wears off, and probably the hormones too, and I'd believe that.

I thought I was prepared for having a baby, but clearly this wasn't in any way true. I didn't mind being pregnant too much, but in hindsight, I think I was depressed then too - I'd had a previous miscarriage, was 40 and worried, and we have a rather extensive history of dead babies in my family, so I think I was freaking out inside without really knowing it.

But I do hope I haven't put you off baby groups altogether; they're not that bad, I just didn't want you to think that they're the cure for anything in particular. (I had one of the motherhood ring me up today and talk at me for ten minutes about her issues with weaning and tiredness, without once asking me how I was, so I'm feeling quite jaded today. She is particularly mad, though).

Poker, blimey, that is a specialised field. I think that's part of the problem, I don't have anything to specialise in writing about, which makes it a bit more difficult. I've also got a novel, or most of a novel, which I've hardly touched since being pregnant. But I don't think this will ever solve the paying the mortgage problems.

But how are you feeling now. I had a shitty weekend, but now the doctors appointment approaches, I am feeling better. Although I sat in the surgery today (for a blood test, just in case it is all the fault of my thyroid gland) and felt very oppressed by all of the posters about childhood accidents and lung cancer, so I don't think it's gone yet. Damn it.

Right, there are babies waking in the next room...again...

Hi twocats,

Don't worry, I will force myself to go to a babygroup at some point, it's just terminal laziness (nothing to do with having a baby, I've always been like that!). Shame you're not in London as I would suggest a meet up to share the burden of 4 month old babies and related ennui .

Do let me know how it goes at the doc's, I hope you get some decent advice. If it is a thyroid prob I'm not surprised you're feeling so crappy, as your energy levels must be all over the place.

I feel ok but just a bit lacklustre really. I need a kickstart, and some sleep, and blah blah.
Now writing a novel - I am majorly impressed that you've even started. Maybe try and work on that when you get the impetus? It's incredible how cathartic writing can be.

Take care

Yes a meetup would have been fun - I was only in Clapham before we upped sticks and ran away to the middle of nowhere so we could have a nice house (or something like that).

Well, the Dr yesterday was very sympathetic - she told me that she'd had PND and felt like an utter failure because she was a doctor and so should know better! She has given me a prescription for the lowest dose of Prozac (on the grounds that it has been very widely used by breastfeeding women in the US, with very few reports of any problems) but said, after I'd told her that I'd started back up on the diary, that if I didn't want to take them straight away, to just wait and see how I felt. And I've got another appointment for two weeks time. The only thing that I was a bit surprised at was that she said that counselling would be better later - I might ask her about that next time.

Am not sure what to do with them though - yesterday I felt quite good, but I was up all night (dd had a cold and so wanted to feed all the time to unblock her nose...) and then I went back to sleep and some workmen started up with a bandsaw. Hip hip hurrah and end of sleep. I think I'll wait and see for a few days, but if I start to feel at all bad, then I'll go for it.

From what you're saying, you sound as though you feel the same as me - I felt as though I needed sleep even when I got some, and nothing seemed particularly interesting. Including my baby, and that's when it started to worry me. I can plough through anything, but if it was going to affect her, then I wanted to do something about it.

Oh heavens, the novel. That is my perpetual homework. And I am procrastinating furiously. It's been going for ages (couple of years, used to go to writing groups with it in London) but haven't picked it up since being pregnant hardly. For the moment my excuse is that I don't get a long enough stretch of time to concentrate while she is asleep. To which the answer is get a mother's help for a couple of mornings, but I have procrastinatingly done nothing whatsoever about that at all. I'm relying on my diary for the catharsis at the moment, but must get my act together. I had two dreams last night about being stuck, which doesn't really take much interpreting.

Let me know how you're doing...

Hi twocats,

Well, your doctor sounds lovely! I'm breastfeeding too so would also want to know about effects of anti-depressants if it came to that. I'm reluctant to go though because I think if I'm medicated I'll end up doing even less work etc, and that's the crux of my problem. So will see.... I do find myself totally stressed for much of the time and taking it out on my partner, which is bad.

Luckily he is v supportive and keeps taking the baby out so that, in theory, I can get things done, but never works out like that.
Plus the sleep is a huge issue - I realised that I hadn't had one decent night's sleep in 4.5 months, which is why I feel completely frazzled I think. DD seems to be regressing with sleep patterns, could it be teething? To be honest that's one for another thread, I'd better ask there.
I know I should probably go to the docs too but at the moment I keep thinking a decent sleep will sort me out, but maybe I'm kidding myself.
Will keep you posted on any developments.... and let's both keep writing

Hi Twcats....I don't know if you remember me from the pg after mc thread, but I recognised you and thought I'd add a few words of support....

Having read the thread, its good that you went to see the doctor, and having a supportive partner is great. I had pnd after the birth of my DS five years ago, and it was six months before I plucked up the courage to see someone and the relief of just talking it through was enormous. i also found that my HV was less than sympathetic about it. I don't know if you've started taking the Prozac or not, but from a self help point of view, I found/find that making sure I had enough B vits and folic acid in my system helped enormously. Exercise is also key to my emotional well-being, so getting out and doing stuff is good. i especially like swimming as I can just free my mind and get on wiht things. I've had bouts of depression since, and was seeing a councellor for a bit, and althoug I didn't think I benefitted from it at the time (the raking over old feelings was very painful), it has put a lot of stuff inperspective. I imagine that your doc wants to get you on more of an even keel before putting you through more emotional trauma.

You have to remember as well hon that getting to this stage has been a mammoth journey for you and there are probably still lots fo feelings and emotions bubbling under the surface due to your MCs. Just because you've now got your baby doesn't make those feelings go away. I know that I've been struggling with things a bit from that point of view....my pg is progressing nicely and physically I'm fine, but my headspace is a bit screwed up. My hormones have been all over the place and I've spent a lot of time in tears and feeling helpless. Then I think I should be grateful that I'm pregnant at all and feel selfish and guilty for feeling so low. But, I've started taking vits again, and seem to have turned a corner (although now I'm worrying about the impending birth, yikes).

Hope things start to look up for you soon, and sorry for such a long post.....
((((((((((hugs)))))))))))), Daisybump xx

I felt shite when all mine were aobut 5 months old

like hitting a brick wall - I like www's thing about mild depression being a perfectly rational response - think that is very true

of course you don't need drugs unless it drags on and on and your own coping mechanisms aren't working at all.

Friends, HELP, SUPPORT (even if you think you dont need it!), exercise, good food, no alcohol, plenty of water, vitamins - this is what I do and it usually gets me through.

sorry didnt read the post where you had got some ad's . Glad you are getting some advice and support from the doc - although counselling is brilliant - I had some when dd2 was about 5 months and it was invaluable.

thankyou everyone for all of the messages. The support on here does really help - as does just writing it out.

Enid - I agree, I think it is normal, in some ways. But I suspect what I am missing out on is the friends and help bit - we moved a couple of years ago, and although I know a lot of nice people, there's no one I'm really close to yet. I'm trying to get out and meet people (at least on the more up days) and take all the vitamins, eat well etc (although one of my real wake up calls was realising that all of the supplements I was taking - fish oil, probiotics etc - were for her benefit rather than mine...)

Daisybump - of course I remember you. How much longer do you have to go? I can completely understand how you describe feeling during the pregnancy - I was much the same, and in retrospect, I think I was depressed while I was pregnant, it's just I thought that all of the lounging around and not being bothered was a physical symptom, not a mental one. Until then it came back now. The miscarriage has definitely had a huge effect, and we also have a big history of dead babies in our family, so I think I was very scared, and still am to some extent. Do you think you might go and talk to someone now - if I was pregnant again, I think I would, just to try and head it off at the pass, so to speak.

meandmymonkey - how are you doing? The tiredness is an utter life-sapper, isn't it; but it's hard to tell what's what - I'm definitely more tired on the bad days, but I think the bad days also cause the exhaustion, as well as the lack of sleep. Does that make sense?

I am almost decided on taking the ADs - even though I do worry that I will never write another interesting word again in my life. But I'm becoming aware - partly from reading up about Prozac and people's experiences on here - that I've been living with a level of anxiety in my life that isn't normal, and if I can get rid of it with a course of Prozac, then that would be wonderful, a real opportunity. I feel like I have dredged up a lot of the old stuff before in two and a half years of counselling/therapy, and mostly have dealt with it, but having a baby has brought some things back, and if the Prozac means I can get rid of them for good, then bring it on. But I am prevaricating a bit, as we have loads of visitors for the next ten days, and so I don't fancy chancing my arm on side effects while I am expected to entertain. And I'm back to the drs in a week, so may prevaricate even that far.

hi Twocats...I'm nearly 33 weeks...yikes. Thoughts of the birth are starting to scare me now, I had a horrible one with my DS.

I've been reading up on some stuff on ante-natal depression whihc has been helping, and talking to like minded people on here has been a huge relief. My close friends have been really supportive too. I gave up work three weeks ago and the change in me has been very noticeable...I haven't screamed at DH or tried to throw anything at him since . Seriously though, I feel heaps better knowing one stressor has been removed from my life. now to get rid of DS.......

Hi twocats et al,

I think 'reactive depresion' is the best way of summing up this whole feeling. I feel much better, though still permanently zonked, but I figure it's a natural response to the stresses in my life - none of which are insurmountable individually, but together just can get on top of me. Everybody has said it will get better... and if not, there is totally no shame in asking for professional help. My advice, if it's any help, is just get out there, go shopping/walking/whatever, in this weather it really makes a difference.
For me, I think/hope it's a 4/5 month thing... that is what I'm telling myself. Anyway, I feel immeasurably better because just went away with a friend and her perfect (ie doesn't cry, ever!) dd for a few days, and despite baby monkey doing her usual shrill squawking act, I have found this article which pretty much sums her up, and I feel at least relieved that she's not completely off the scale loony, even if I am .
Oh dear, have just read Enid's post re alcohol... oops. I do have the odd glass or 3 of wine, but only after a night time formula feed...

I've just come across this thread, and bizarrely, it really describes how I'm feeling! My DD is 5 months, and I love her to bits, but I've found it very difficult to adjust to parenthood, and my self-confidence has taken a big nose dive.

When she was born, she had severe colic for the first three months; I was exhausted, and depressed enough to take ADs for a while. Things improved around 12 weeks, and she began sleeping much better. As a result, I improved and began to cope much better. However, I still feel kind of flat and sometimes - I hate to admit it - a bit bored.

I can also really relate to what everyone says about the group activities. I do a few with DD to while away time as much as anything else, but find that we have nothing in common but parenthood.

I am finding that things are improving slowly as DD gets older. At least now I can read to her - to our mutual enjoyment - and I am trying to learn as much as I can about how children develop and grow, as this at least offers a bit of intellectual stimulation, which I think is one of the things you miss when you have a baby and are stuck in a daily grind.

It's all starting to look like a pattern here; at four or five months the euphoria starts to wear off (as well as the sense of achievement at just accomplishing something minor, like getting dressed) and the full realisation of exactly what has happened kicks in. So then what do you do, other than take ADs? Answers on a postcard please...

meandmymonkey - glad the weekend away was good (and not too stressful in the face of other people's perfect children). I can sympathise with the high-maintenance baby thing. I was terrified that dd would take after me (low boredom threshold, hyperactive, slept 5 hours a night at the age of 2), but fortunately she seems to have opted for my husband's rather more laidback outlook, for the moment at least. And I have been taking your advice and getting out to the allotment.

daisybump - glad you're feeling better. Work is one of the hardest parts of the whole equation, I think: you're damned if you do with stress, guilt and exhaustion, and damned by boredom if you don't.

jessicatmagnificat - your post is pretty much my life word for word, well, except the colic. Have you found any decent books on child development - I was thinking just the same thing, only haven't got round to reading anything yet! Was even considering some kind of OU course or something,

But I don't think it's just intellectual stimulation I'm missing, it's also a sense of accomplishment, which is why going out to the allotment and persecuting some weeds is considerably more satisfying than just trundling round town with the pram. As I said, now that things have settled down, I no longer feel proud just to have emptied the dishwasher, and so I'd love some project or something. Or even classes for women and their babies - I went to a monthly mother and baby yoga last week and it was great, dd and I both had fun and I got fitter too. But most of what's on offer round here are mother and toddler playgroups, or, worse, 'music with mummy' and the like. I don't get much from them, the church halls are always dingy and the coffee beyond words. That'll teach me to move to the country.

Hello all - I'm glad I logged onto this conversation. I have a 10 week old and am and 'on the edger' too. I didn't realise until I did the PND questionnaire that I was as I found it hard to tell what was normal to be feeling - I kept thinking well surely it's normal to be tired, down and crying every so often.

I felt relieved when HV said that I was borderline - I feel now (on good days) that I can try and do something about it. And hopefully get something in place before the 4 month stage that you are all talking about hits me.

Will be trying the mums groups and have been considering exercise (although have always been shockingly bad at it - maybe just a slow trot round the block).

The other thing that reading this has made me realise is that others have the same issues and finds it hard to find friends - I thought I was a freak as everyone else seems to have loads of mates and felt it was just me being uninteresting or something.. My mind playing tricks on me I think.

As normal mumsnet does it again and helps mums to cope better - thank you everyone!!

Welcome, to our not very exclusive club. It's such a relief to know that I'm not the only one slightly boring myself into madness in the privacy of my own home.

Inthehouse - oh heavens yes, wouldn't it be wonderful to meet other mothers of small babies and all actually tell the truth about what you're feeling. There's a woman I know from NCT who is having a pretty rough time - her boy won't sleep more than a few hours at a stretch at night, even now, five months on, and she's had to put off going back to work. But we still talk about poo, rather than saying, it's quite grim sometimes, isn't it. Still, I suppose mumsnet does some of that for us. And I had a look at your other thread - as I said above, you have my sympathy because I was that child. My mother said that she was so relieved when I started at playgroup because she just couldn't keep me entertained at home. (And if it's any consolation, I turned into a relatively well-adjusted adult, with a proper degree and all that...)

Bouncyminky - yes I did the PND questionnaire too, and was really surprised to get a high-ish score. Don't get too impressed by the talk of exercise; I used to go to the gym quite a bit before I was pregnant, since dd was born I haven't broken into anything other than a fast-ish walk. But it does help, as does the company of other mums (with all of the provisos above!). The other thing that I think has helped me - in part thanks to the advice on this thread - is making just a bit of time for myself every day. I use it to write a diary while she's napping, but that's not everyone's cup of tea, but something that's for you not the baby and isn't the washing up is one way I've found of rediscovering a small bit of my old life!

Hi all,

It does seem like we're all members of a not so fun club, doesn't it? I totally agree with twocats saying she wishes people would be honest about how tedious/hard it can be looking after a baby... I think that's one of the things that gets to me. That and the fact that sometimes I look around, it's 6pm, and I have literally done nothing but get dressed and feed the baby all day.
I'm resisting the thought of going to the docs and going on ADs because I feel, personally, that I am just reacting to real - if minor - stresses in my life, but the crucial thing is/would be support, or lack of it. It would be nice if we could have an honest mum's bitching group (for want of a better word)!
Part of the problem is how you perceive others, and I always think I'm up against perfect mums etc, when perhaps they're all feeling similar? Plus, I get kinda bored talking about nappies/weaning/whatever... my brain is vegetating!
So my prescription for myself is to try and attempt a cryptic crossword once in a while and try and watch something more challenging than Ugly Betty.
Some good advice someone gave me after having 2 babies: they will never know if you're not a 'perfect' mother, so give yourself a break... it's not a competition!
Good luck girls - just want to show solidarity and say you are not alone!!

Wow glad to find this thread, having just spent past 2hrs blubbing - but my Lo is tiny, only 11 days - does it kind of get better in between now and 5-month blues?

phdlife - poor you. Yes it does get better, a lot better. Your hormones carry you through a lot of the tired patches - at three months I thought I was queen of the world and could tackle anything. But do tell a doctor or a health visitor how you are feeling - I found that just admitting to the doctor how I felt made a huge difference.

Meandmymonkey - I think the worst thing about perfect mums is that they look as if they are enjoying it the whole time. They may admit to the odd slip or letting the baby cry, but they never say it is driving them round the bend and can't someone just say something interesting for once. I'm taking consolation from Donald Winnicott, who said that no one is a perfect mother, and if you were your child would never develop, as it would never learn the difference between itself and the world, so all you want to be is a 'good enough' mother (I bastardise his work slightly, but it will do).

How is your writing going? If you are doing anything at all, you may shame me into doing more than posting on MN. And i do think it's worth going to the dr, the ADs aren't compulsary,

Today, I am a bit low for the first time in ages, and all my joints ache, which seems to happen when i am down. And I'm tired, but not thanks to dd, just couldn't sleep. Grrrr.

Phdlife - yes, I promise you it gets better (the first few weeks are unbelievably sh*t if you have an unsettled baby and are feeling a bit rough yourself). Keep coming onto MN - it's really good for helping you get through this phase.

Twocats,Inthehouse,MeandmyMonkey - I have read "Life After Birth" by Kate Figes (sorry, don't know how to do a hyperlink to Amazon)and found this really useful and much more honest about the exhaustion and the sheer repetitive grind of it all much more so than most baby manuals.

All the mums I meet at the various groups are really nice, but I'm desperate to have a good discussion about books or films or current affairs; anything but not weaning, what your baby can do and where to buy good baby clothes from. Aaaah!!!

I did read 'Life after Birth' while I was pregnant, and ended up hiding it away, because I found it absolutely unrelentingly grim, and very short on any of the positive aspects of being a parent. And I still thought the same when I dipped back into it after dd was born, but then perhaps I was expecting the worst anyway. It's more of a form of contraception than a book. . Have you read 'What Mothers Do?" by Naomi Stadlen - it's slightly over the other side into saccharin, but also interesting. And there is another one I really like, but can't remember or find on Amazon for the moment, but will have a look on the shelves later. It's an author, a proper one, writing about motherhood, and very readable.

And yes, couldn't agree with you more about the conversation. But I see you're in Bristol - I'm in N Somerset, so if you do ever fancy a chat about books, we can always meet in the middle somewhere (don't really do films, that's my drawback!). I promise not to discuss feeding, weaning, nappies, or going back to work, which is all anyone seems to have talked at me about since I gave birth.

Hi twocats,Jessicat,ITH et al

Thanks for all the advice, especially reading matter... deep breath... I am ashamed to say I have barely read any parenting books AT ALL! I feel so overcome with the world of babies that I think I've had enough. Which sounds mean, but not meant to be. I do have a 'bible' of sorts, by Dr Michel Cohen (A-Z of parenting or such-like) which is just a nice down to earth book by a lovely French/American doctor, which basically tells you not to panic.
The book I read when I was pregnant (a mistake?) was 'We need to talk about Kevin' by Lionel Schriver... don't know if anyone here has read it, but it's about a US High School massacre. Probably, on balance, not the thing to read before your baby is born, but I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Am feeling generally better as dd gets bigger and has hit the 5 month mark, but still find it nigh on impossible to get much else done.
Twocats, I am doing some writing, but dull stuff, web content, not really creative. Just to keep the wolf from the door really.
Somebody on this thread mentioned the dreaded word routine... I suppose I must bite that particular bullet soon. I am so disorganised generally and such a night owl/late riser, I've been kind of putting off proper baby routines. A mistake? Possibly this is also why I find parenting so damn hard!
Anyway, roll on weekend, sunshine is predicted in London.