Do I have PND? Or just a baby? And are there ways of coping without drugs.

[twocatsonthebed]

So, here I am, dd 4.5 months, me physically recovered, if a bit stout. Nothing's that bad, but nothing's that great either. I'm tired, no, exhausted, utterly without energy, and can cry at the drop of a hat (as well as shout at DH for no good reason). I don't really feel like myself at all - I'm usually energetic and fantastically cheerful.

And there's no reason for me to feel like this. I'm blessed with a baby who sleeps, and a dh who works from home and is a fantastic support, so I feel as though I have no excuse at all. And to all appearances, I'm coping fine: getting dressed every day, cooking dinner, talking to people, getting out and about and so on. So I think I'd get pretty short shrift from the HV (not that she's very interested in me anyway, and it's an open clinic) or the doctor.

So, is this PND, or just the normal fabric of life with a baby? And, given that no dr is likely to prescribe me ADs, what can I do to make myself feel better? I am trying to go for a walk most days, do some gardening, but what else?

[LeBe]

Thanks for the advice twocatsonthebed. I think i will take your advice and go to see the female doctor again, hopefully she will be in a better mood and i will be able to talk to her.

I hope you are feeling better though. x

[twocatsonthebed]

Poor you, I think any right-thinking person would have PND after a bad pregnancy and a traumatic birth (and, for what it's worth, that any male doctor ought to be able to see that).

And of course they're not going to refer you to social services - if anything, I think that asking for help makes you a better mother, not a worse one. I'd try and see the female doctor if you can, I'm so pleased I did myself. Just admitting everything wasn't alright was a great relief!

[LeBe]

Thanks twocatsonthebed.

Bascially at my surgery we have a hv who is rude and has a go at you, 2 male docs who think you are overeacting having never had babies themselves and 1 female doc who is usually nice and who i always go and see but because ive been alot latley i think she thinks im a hypercondriact (sp?) My other worry,is that if i say im feeling this way they might think im not looking after my ds and call social services, I know this is silly cos my ds is obviously very well cared for and everyone says im doing a great job but it still worries me.

Bascially i had a kind of bad pg, a very traumatic birth, tons of stitches and problems with infections and excessive bleeding, I am still 3stone heavier than when i started and am covered in stretchmarks i know everyone says this but they go right down my legs too and the combination has really got me down, everyone says ds is worth it all tho and believe me he is i would go through it all 10 times for him but it doesnt make it any easier!

Sorry for waffling!

[twocatsonthebed]

No, not a right wierdo at all, come on in...

And I know exactly how you feel; on bad days staying in makes me worse, and going out to see other mothers makes me feel worse still.

But it is worth persevering with the doctor - or perhaps seeing another one at the surgery - my practice has someone who specialises in mental health, and she has been wonderful, and is really making a difference.

[LeBe]

Hi. Just wanted to say that when i read your post it was like i had written it! So i too am hoping its normal. My ds is 6 months and i love him more tananything in the world and he is an angel compared to most babies but i am still exhausted. When i see people i put on a big smile which is sometimes a false one and everyone thinks im fine its only dp who knows otherwise. My hv is also not interested in the slightest and feel i am being silly to go and talk to the doctor about it and last time i went she was very short with me so didnt have the courage to say anyway. I also thought mine was an isolation problem so made great efforts to go to groups etc where my dys are now nearly full of things to do, but the new worry is im not spending enough quality time with ds cos we are always running about doing stuff! Oh dear i sound like a right wierdo now! Sorry x

[twocatsonthebed]

It's not impossible that being bookish may be a warning sign for PND of course...

And yes, thankyou for asking, I am feeling a bit better. Some of this would have happened anyway, I think, not least because I am taking a quite awe-inspiring selection of vitamins in the morning. But I have decided to take the ADs - as I think I have said elsewhere on this thread, it's not so much for the PND as anxiety, which I've had for ages and ages and just got used to living with. Having dd has definitely made it worse - we have to go to London next week and I was practially having panic attacks thinking about a pushchair on Oford Street - and reading some of the threads on MN has also made me realise that it's not quite norma. So I am taking this as an opportunity to sort it out. And I'm going to get some CBT on the NHS as well.

And the doctor was wonderful - and very intuitive. I'd been thinking about the anxiety, and when I got into her office, she had an 'is it depression or is it anxiety' test on her desk ready! And she's prescribed me something different which works better for anxiety. So, we shall see. I do feel better already - brighter, without feeling blunted, and I'm getting a whole lot more done, rather than thinking 'oh I can't be bothered'. (More like my usual self if you like). But I also feel a bit of a fraud, or a failure, for taking them as well, so you can't win.

I know what you mean about that extra £50k. We're seriously thinking about getting a much cheaper house (we're renting at the moment - wanted to check out living outside London before we committed!) for four years or so, so that I don't have to stress about work until she goes to nursery. But I guess that all of that isn't much of an option in London.

[MeAndMyMonkey]

Just checking in to see how everyone's doing?
Twocats, sorry we have turned this thread into a semi-book club... I hope you are feeling better generally and the visit to the dr's helped somewhat?
Meanwhile, I'm struggling a bit with work/childcare (ie lack of) and therefore feeling very pressured... plus high-spirited baby monkey has been excessively, well, high-spirited of late, so it's been hard work.
I just want a magic wand (or failing that about £50k...)to make it all better... I feel I'm almost there and kind of coping but not exactly my usual self.
I think I used to be fun, cannot quite remember now!

[twocatsonthebed]

No, Rachel Cusk is marginally less unremittingly grim than Kate Figes, but it's a thin margin. It's called (now I am on the other computer and sitting next to it) Making Babies by Anne Enright. It's a rather more 'poetic' bit of writing but more emotional too. Mind you, I'm not sure why I'm in the business of recommending books, when I haven't read any myself for ages. At the start, when feeds took ages and she was smaller, I read while I was breastfeeding her; but now it only takes a short time, and she kicks away anything I rest on the arm of the chair.

meandmymonkey. I haven't hardly read anything in the way of parenting books, but when I was pregnant, I read all manner of books about the experience of being a mother, in the hope that this might send me out the other side prepared. (research is such a big part of my work that I do tend to transfer that to other parts of my life, even when it's obviously pointless). But I did avoid 'Kevin', just in case it sent me over the edge.

Me? I only write my diary at the moment. The notion of finding a couple of mornings childcare so that I can settle down to it is a bit daunting at the moment, or I am procrastinating. Probably the latter. Meandmymonkey are you writing with or without childcare? If the latter, I need to know your secret.

Jessicat - I have CAT and will CAT you later; off to view a house now (a cheap one, so I don't have to go back to work...)

[Jessicatmagnificat]

Hi all.

Twocats - it's not the Rachel Cusk book is it? I keep meaning to read this, but have heard that it is depressing, and don't know if that would be helpful at the moment?!? I will order the Naomi Stadlen book to have a look at. I will have to join MN properly so I can CAT you (adds to list of things to do emoticon).

Well, looking forward to the weekend, as at least that means I have DH to help out, and that means a bit more time for myself. And the chance to share a bottle of wine!

MN is full of creative types. How is the writing going? I feel so knackered and rushed these days that I don't make time for any serious reading or writing of my own at the moment. But I have started keeping a blog about the books DD and I read together(children's literature is something I've got a lot of strong opinions about as a bit of a bookworm myself) and I'm hoping this might inspire me a bit.

Well, keep buggering on, and speak to you all soon XX

[MeAndMyMonkey]

Hi twocats,Jessicat,ITH et al

Thanks for all the advice, especially reading matter... deep breath... I am ashamed to say I have barely read any parenting books AT ALL! I feel so overcome with the world of babies that I think I've had enough. Which sounds mean, but not meant to be. I do have a 'bible' of sorts, by Dr Michel Cohen (A-Z of parenting or such-like) which is just a nice down to earth book by a lovely French/American doctor, which basically tells you not to panic.
The book I read when I was pregnant (a mistake?) was 'We need to talk about Kevin' by Lionel Schriver... don't know if anyone here has read it, but it's about a US High School massacre. Probably, on balance, not the thing to read before your baby is born, but I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Am feeling generally better as dd gets bigger and has hit the 5 month mark, but still find it nigh on impossible to get much else done.
Twocats, I am doing some writing, but dull stuff, web content, not really creative. Just to keep the wolf from the door really.
Somebody on this thread mentioned the dreaded word routine... I suppose I must bite that particular bullet soon. I am so disorganised generally and such a night owl/late riser, I've been kind of putting off proper baby routines. A mistake? Possibly this is also why I find parenting so damn hard!
Anyway, roll on weekend, sunshine is predicted in London.

[twocatsonthebed]

I did read 'Life after Birth' while I was pregnant, and ended up hiding it away, because I found it absolutely unrelentingly grim, and very short on any of the positive aspects of being a parent. And I still thought the same when I dipped back into it after dd was born, but then perhaps I was expecting the worst anyway. It's more of a form of contraception than a book. . Have you read 'What Mothers Do?" by Naomi Stadlen - it's slightly over the other side into saccharin, but also interesting. And there is another one I really like, but can't remember or find on Amazon for the moment, but will have a look on the shelves later. It's an author, a proper one, writing about motherhood, and very readable.

And yes, couldn't agree with you more about the conversation. But I see you're in Bristol - I'm in N Somerset, so if you do ever fancy a chat about books, we can always meet in the middle somewhere (don't really do films, that's my drawback!). I promise not to discuss feeding, weaning, nappies, or going back to work, which is all anyone seems to have talked at me about since I gave birth.

[Jessicatmagnificat]

Phdlife - yes, I promise you it gets better (the first few weeks are unbelievably sh*t if you have an unsettled baby and are feeling a bit rough yourself). Keep coming onto MN - it's really good for helping you get through this phase.

Twocats,Inthehouse,MeandmyMonkey - I have read "Life After Birth" by Kate Figes (sorry, don't know how to do a hyperlink to Amazon)and found this really useful and much more honest about the exhaustion and the sheer repetitive grind of it all much more so than most baby manuals.

All the mums I meet at the various groups are really nice, but I'm desperate to have a good discussion about books or films or current affairs; anything but not weaning, what your baby can do and where to buy good baby clothes from. Aaaah!!!

[twocatsonthebed]

phdlife - poor you. Yes it does get better, a lot better. Your hormones carry you through a lot of the tired patches - at three months I thought I was queen of the world and could tackle anything. But do tell a doctor or a health visitor how you are feeling - I found that just admitting to the doctor how I felt made a huge difference.

Meandmymonkey - I think the worst thing about perfect mums is that they look as if they are enjoying it the whole time. They may admit to the odd slip or letting the baby cry, but they never say it is driving them round the bend and can't someone just say something interesting for once. I'm taking consolation from Donald Winnicott, who said that no one is a perfect mother, and if you were your child would never develop, as it would never learn the difference between itself and the world, so all you want to be is a 'good enough' mother (I bastardise his work slightly, but it will do).

How is your writing going? If you are doing anything at all, you may shame me into doing more than posting on MN. And i do think it's worth going to the dr, the ADs aren't compulsary,

Today, I am a bit low for the first time in ages, and all my joints ache, which seems to happen when i am down. And I'm tired, but not thanks to dd, just couldn't sleep. Grrrr.

[InTheHouse]

Oh! phd! bless you....eleven days is so early days. You just need to go with the flow & look after yourself & get as looked after as you can for now whilst you look after the new demands of your tiny one. But, mumsnet is a great place to help you get through these days & all the rest. I wish I'd found it earlier. Have you friends &/or family nearby ? xxxx

[phdlife]

Wow glad to find this thread, having just spent past 2hrs blubbing - but my Lo is tiny, only 11 days - does it kind of get better in between now and 5-month blues?

[MeAndMyMonkey]

Hi all,

It does seem like we're all members of a not so fun club, doesn't it? I totally agree with twocats saying she wishes people would be honest about how tedious/hard it can be looking after a baby... I think that's one of the things that gets to me. That and the fact that sometimes I look around, it's 6pm, and I have literally done nothing but get dressed and feed the baby all day.
I'm resisting the thought of going to the docs and going on ADs because I feel, personally, that I am just reacting to real - if minor - stresses in my life, but the crucial thing is/would be support, or lack of it. It would be nice if we could have an honest mum's bitching group (for want of a better word)!
Part of the problem is how you perceive others, and I always think I'm up against perfect mums etc, when perhaps they're all feeling similar? Plus, I get kinda bored talking about nappies/weaning/whatever... my brain is vegetating!
So my prescription for myself is to try and attempt a cryptic crossword once in a while and try and watch something more challenging than Ugly Betty.
Some good advice someone gave me after having 2 babies: they will never know if you're not a 'perfect' mother, so give yourself a break... it's not a competition!
Good luck girls - just want to show solidarity and say you are not alone!!

[twocatsonthebed]

Welcome, to our not very exclusive club. It's such a relief to know that I'm not the only one slightly boring myself into madness in the privacy of my own home.

Inthehouse - oh heavens yes, wouldn't it be wonderful to meet other mothers of small babies and all actually tell the truth about what you're feeling. There's a woman I know from NCT who is having a pretty rough time - her boy won't sleep more than a few hours at a stretch at night, even now, five months on, and she's had to put off going back to work. But we still talk about poo, rather than saying, it's quite grim sometimes, isn't it. Still, I suppose mumsnet does some of that for us. And I had a look at your other thread - as I said above, you have my sympathy because I was that child. My mother said that she was so relieved when I started at playgroup because she just couldn't keep me entertained at home. (And if it's any consolation, I turned into a relatively well-adjusted adult, with a proper degree and all that...)

Bouncyminky - yes I did the PND questionnaire too, and was really surprised to get a high-ish score. Don't get too impressed by the talk of exercise; I used to go to the gym quite a bit before I was pregnant, since dd was born I haven't broken into anything other than a fast-ish walk. But it does help, as does the company of other mums (with all of the provisos above!). The other thing that I think has helped me - in part thanks to the advice on this thread - is making just a bit of time for myself every day. I use it to write a diary while she's napping, but that's not everyone's cup of tea, but something that's for you not the baby and isn't the washing up is one way I've found of rediscovering a small bit of my old life!

[InTheHouse]

I'm glad to have found this too - sort of lead here by me&mymonkey posting on a thread i started about being frazzled by my hyper 6month old boy. But I also relate to a lot that has been spoken about on here. Interested in the 4-5 mth theory bit because I have felt down a bit again recently and I really related to the idea that those little achievements (cooking a meal, ironing a shirt....) have now just become daily drudgery (not sure about my spelling there)

I just wish that I could meet some mums in "real life" that weren't having a fantastic expereinece so I felt i could relate to them properly & feel that they understood me too. I'd love to start a group meeeting for parents of hyper children because they are a different brand of baby. I'm so exhausted after today; just on fast forward with my boy all day long.

I have been on ad's for four months now- they have really helped me & I'm glad I decided to take them. I really didn't want to. And I'm bf-ing, you can still do with certain types of ad's

[Bouncyminky]

Hello all - I'm glad I logged onto this conversation. I have a 10 week old and am and 'on the edger' too. I didn't realise until I did the PND questionnaire that I was as I found it hard to tell what was normal to be feeling - I kept thinking well surely it's normal to be tired, down and crying every so often.

I felt relieved when HV said that I was borderline - I feel now (on good days) that I can try and do something about it. And hopefully get something in place before the 4 month stage that you are all talking about hits me.

Will be trying the mums groups and have been considering exercise (although have always been shockingly bad at it - maybe just a slow trot round the block).

The other thing that reading this has made me realise is that others have the same issues and finds it hard to find friends - I thought I was a freak as everyone else seems to have loads of mates and felt it was just me being uninteresting or something.. My mind playing tricks on me I think.

As normal mumsnet does it again and helps mums to cope better - thank you everyone!!

[twocatsonthebed]

It's all starting to look like a pattern here; at four or five months the euphoria starts to wear off (as well as the sense of achievement at just accomplishing something minor, like getting dressed) and the full realisation of exactly what has happened kicks in. So then what do you do, other than take ADs? Answers on a postcard please...

meandmymonkey - glad the weekend away was good (and not too stressful in the face of other people's perfect children). I can sympathise with the high-maintenance baby thing. I was terrified that dd would take after me (low boredom threshold, hyperactive, slept 5 hours a night at the age of 2), but fortunately she seems to have opted for my husband's rather more laidback outlook, for the moment at least. And I have been taking your advice and getting out to the allotment.

daisybump - glad you're feeling better. Work is one of the hardest parts of the whole equation, I think: you're damned if you do with stress, guilt and exhaustion, and damned by boredom if you don't.

jessicatmagnificat - your post is pretty much my life word for word, well, except the colic. Have you found any decent books on child development - I was thinking just the same thing, only haven't got round to reading anything yet! Was even considering some kind of OU course or something,

But I don't think it's just intellectual stimulation I'm missing, it's also a sense of accomplishment, which is why going out to the allotment and persecuting some weeds is considerably more satisfying than just trundling round town with the pram. As I said, now that things have settled down, I no longer feel proud just to have emptied the dishwasher, and so I'd love some project or something. Or even classes for women and their babies - I went to a monthly mother and baby yoga last week and it was great, dd and I both had fun and I got fitter too. But most of what's on offer round here are mother and toddler playgroups, or, worse, 'music with mummy' and the like. I don't get much from them, the church halls are always dingy and the coffee beyond words. That'll teach me to move to the country.

[Jessicatmagnificat]

I've just come across this thread, and bizarrely, it really describes how I'm feeling! My DD is 5 months, and I love her to bits, but I've found it very difficult to adjust to parenthood, and my self-confidence has taken a big nose dive.

When she was born, she had severe colic for the first three months; I was exhausted, and depressed enough to take ADs for a while. Things improved around 12 weeks, and she began sleeping much better. As a result, I improved and began to cope much better. However, I still feel kind of flat and sometimes - I hate to admit it - a bit bored.

I can also really relate to what everyone says about the group activities. I do a few with DD to while away time as much as anything else, but find that we have nothing in common but parenthood.

I am finding that things are improving slowly as DD gets older. At least now I can read to her - to our mutual enjoyment - and I am trying to learn as much as I can about how children develop and grow, as this at least offers a bit of intellectual stimulation, which I think is one of the things you miss when you have a baby and are stuck in a daily grind.

[MeAndMyMonkey]

Hi twocats et al,

I think 'reactive depresion' is the best way of summing up this whole feeling. I feel much better, though still permanently zonked, but I figure it's a natural response to the stresses in my life - none of which are insurmountable individually, but together just can get on top of me. Everybody has said it will get better... and if not, there is totally no shame in asking for professional help. My advice, if it's any help, is just get out there, go shopping/walking/whatever, in this weather it really makes a difference.
For me, I think/hope it's a 4/5 month thing... that is what I'm telling myself. Anyway, I feel immeasurably better because just went away with a friend and her perfect (ie doesn't cry, ever!) dd for a few days, and despite baby monkey doing her usual shrill squawking act, I have found this article which pretty much sums her up, and I feel at least relieved that she's not completely off the scale loony, even if I am .
Oh dear, have just read Enid's post re alcohol... oops. I do have the odd glass or 3 of wine, but only after a night time formula feed...

[Daisybump]

hi Twocats...I'm nearly 33 weeks...yikes. Thoughts of the birth are starting to scare me now, I had a horrible one with my DS.

I've been reading up on some stuff on ante-natal depression whihc has been helping, and talking to like minded people on here has been a huge relief. My close friends have been really supportive too. I gave up work three weeks ago and the change in me has been very noticeable...I haven't screamed at DH or tried to throw anything at him since . Seriously though, I feel heaps better knowing one stressor has been removed from my life. now to get rid of DS.......

[twocatsonthebed]

thankyou everyone for all of the messages. The support on here does really help - as does just writing it out.

Enid - I agree, I think it is normal, in some ways. But I suspect what I am missing out on is the friends and help bit - we moved a couple of years ago, and although I know a lot of nice people, there's no one I'm really close to yet. I'm trying to get out and meet people (at least on the more up days) and take all the vitamins, eat well etc (although one of my real wake up calls was realising that all of the supplements I was taking - fish oil, probiotics etc - were for her benefit rather than mine...)

Daisybump - of course I remember you. How much longer do you have to go? I can completely understand how you describe feeling during the pregnancy - I was much the same, and in retrospect, I think I was depressed while I was pregnant, it's just I thought that all of the lounging around and not being bothered was a physical symptom, not a mental one. Until then it came back now. The miscarriage has definitely had a huge effect, and we also have a big history of dead babies in our family, so I think I was very scared, and still am to some extent. Do you think you might go and talk to someone now - if I was pregnant again, I think I would, just to try and head it off at the pass, so to speak.

meandmymonkey - how are you doing? The tiredness is an utter life-sapper, isn't it; but it's hard to tell what's what - I'm definitely more tired on the bad days, but I think the bad days also cause the exhaustion, as well as the lack of sleep. Does that make sense?

I am almost decided on taking the ADs - even though I do worry that I will never write another interesting word again in my life. But I'm becoming aware - partly from reading up about Prozac and people's experiences on here - that I've been living with a level of anxiety in my life that isn't normal, and if I can get rid of it with a course of Prozac, then that would be wonderful, a real opportunity. I feel like I have dredged up a lot of the old stuff before in two and a half years of counselling/therapy, and mostly have dealt with it, but having a baby has brought some things back, and if the Prozac means I can get rid of them for good, then bring it on. But I am prevaricating a bit, as we have loads of visitors for the next ten days, and so I don't fancy chancing my arm on side effects while I am expected to entertain. And I'm back to the drs in a week, so may prevaricate even that far.

[Enid]

sorry didnt read the post where you had got some ad's . Glad you are getting some advice and support from the doc - although counselling is brilliant - I had some when dd2 was about 5 months and it was invaluable.